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Snicolette 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 6039
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 Posted: October 04 2021 at 08:37 |
 Lewian wrote:
@CosmicVibration: Your thing seems to be that the vaccine either has to be 100% safe and effective or is not to be trusted. Nothing in life is 100% safe and effective though. Vaccinated people may become ill and die as well, just not many. It's not only about an individual person protecting themselves. It's about the general spread of the virus including its possibility to mutate and produce new variants. At some point maybe there's one the vaccine won't help against. Or at some point a mutated version will dominate that is totally harmless, who knows. Until then, it's about numbers. Vaccinated people can still transmit the virus but transmissibility is lowered. Vaccinated people are still at risk, but the more people are vaccinated, the lower is that risk. The vaccines have side effects, dangerous for some, yet far less dangerous than Covid in vaccinated people. The more people vaccinated, the fewer will die, and the more freedom is possible without putting people's health at risk. Individuals don't tend to care about this, they ask "does it protect me?" and may worry about side effects. Those who demand 100% protection and safety won't be convinced (and neither will those influenced by weirdos such as the German guy who had claimed that most vaccinated people will be dead by end September). "Personal freedom" has to be weighted against the epidemiology of the overall population. Is personal freedom worth 100,000 deaths more or less? Of course that's a made up number because nobody can give a number that will be accepted by all... |
Perfectly stated.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1396
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 08:38 |
Cboi Sandlin wrote:
Vaccines should be optional, end of story, let’s move on to a less crazy topic |
I agree, it’s probably the craziest topic in American politics
as well as world politics currently debated.
If vaccines were optional moving on would be simple. Unfortunately, the effects are drastic and far
reaching. There is a lot at stake…
Freedom, according to Biden, is no longer yours. We’ll stick a needle in your arm or else you
cannot work or move around freely in society.
If you don’t follow the narrative, you will be censored no matter your
credentials or facts presented.
Instill fear, divide, conquer and dominate.
FJB
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1396
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 08:48 |
Lewian wrote:
@CosmicVibration: Your thing seems to be that the vaccine either has to be 100% safe and effective or is not to be trusted. Nothing in life is 100% safe and effective though. Vaccinated people may become ill and die as well, just not many. It's not only about an individual person protecting themselves. It's about the general spread of the virus including its possibility to mutate and produce new variants. At some point maybe there's one the vaccine won't help against. Or at some point a mutated version will dominate that is totally harmless, who knows. Until then, it's about numbers. Vaccinated people can still transmit the virus but transmissibility is lowered. Vaccinated people are still at risk, but the more people are vaccinated, the lower is that risk. The vaccines have side effects, dangerous for some, yet far less dangerous than Covid in vaccinated people. The more people vaccinated, the fewer will die, and the more freedom is possible without putting people's health at risk. Individuals don't tend to care about this, they ask "does it protect me?" and may worry about side effects. Those who demand 100% protection and safety won't be convinced (and neither will those influenced by weirdos such as the German guy who had claimed that most vaccinated people will be dead by end September). "Personal freedom" has to be weighted against the epidemiology of the overall population. Is personal freedom worth 100,000 deaths more or less? Of course that's a made up number because nobody can give a number that will be accepted by all... |
Not at all, my thing is it should be a choice. I understand that vaccines as well as natural
immunity is not 100%. There should be
honest information and honest reporting.
Also, need to look realistically on lives saved by forced
vaccination versus lives ruined by same mandates. When there is more honesty, then there is more
trust. More trust and people will be
more willing to follow.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 09:23 |
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I'm pro choice and as far as I know, no US citizens have been held down and forced to take a vaccine.
When an employer or agency tells you, 'get a vaccine or find another job', they are offering you a choice. I think its reasonable in a free society for employers and heads of agencies to want to work with vaccinated people. That's their choice too.
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1396
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 09:47 |
^ Should the Federal Government have the power to impose 14k
fines per unvaccinated employee?
Should those that are less of a threat (natural immunity) be
discriminated against?
Should anyone have to disclose their medical history and
status in order to get a job?
Maybe if your sick you should just stay home.
Should a business be allowed not to sell a wedding cake to gay
couples, mixed race couples, their business their choice?
Should a business not allow you to enter unless you provide
medical history?
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 09:52 |
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^ Should employers and heads of agencies be forced to work with unvaccinated people?
The examples of discrimination you provided are already illegal. Breaking those laws makes you a criminal.
Edited by Easy Money - October 04 2021 at 09:57
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1396
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 10:28 |
They should not be able to discriminate based on vaccine
status. At the very least, natural immunity
should be taken into consideration.
After all, what is the basis for this discrimination, safety?
You didn’t answer whether you believe Biden overstepped his
authority on imposing a $14,000 fine per employee for not following his vaccine
mandate?
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 10:39 |
CosmicVibration wrote:
SteveG wrote:
The hardest thing to take about the anti vaccine populous, aside from being healthcare workers who put patients at risk (imagine going to the ICU for an unrelated ailment, contracting Covid while in the hospital and then dying), is the fact that vaccines have such a little track record of side effects given the ratio of illnesses and deaths to that of those vaccinated. If just 10% of those vaccinated suffered such outcomes, then yes, vaccine hesitancy would be understandable by almost everyone. That is not the case, so any rational person can only view this hesitancy or rejection of the vaccines as the acts of stubborn stupid people who, furthermore, can't understand why they are treated as such and never will, I'm afraid. |
<p ="Msonormal">At least you tried to answer JD’s brainfart…<o:p></o:p> <p ="Msonormal">Ok, so you took the vaccine and had no immediate side effects.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>For the sake of argument, you will not experience any long-term complications from the experimental gene therapy either.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>You go to a hospital and there’s covid all around you, but you need not worry, the efficiency of said “vaccine” is off the charts.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>You come out unscathed... <o:p></o:p> <p ="Msonormal">An unvaccinated “stupid” person walks into the same hospital, contracts the virus and falls severely ill and maybe even dies.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>This is the person you are afraid for.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span><o:p></o:p> <p ="Msonormal">You are so concerned about your fellow human beings that you would strip them of their rights and force them inject something into their bodies that they don’t want for their own good.<o:p></o:p> <p ="Msonormal">Is this your logic?<o:p></o:p> |
For the record, I don't think that you're stupid Cindy. I just don't think that you can think logically. But I digress. I'm all for freedom of choice, except in cases where extreme stupidity and illogical thought prevails.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 10:41 |
CosmicVibration wrote:
<p ="Msonormal">They should not be able to discriminate based on vaccine
status.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>At the very least, natural immunity
should be taken into consideration.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>After all, what is the basis for this discrimination, safety?<o:p></o:p>
<p ="Msonormal">You didn’t answer whether you believe Biden overstepped his
authority on imposing a $14,000 fine per employee for not following his vaccine
mandate?<o:p></o:p> |
Are you still touting natural immunity? Amazing.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 10:56 |
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If a person thinks that employers should be forced to hire unvaccinated people, then they are not pro-choice, they are pro government hiring mandates.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 11:12 |
Easy Money wrote:
If a person thinks that employers should be forced to hire unvaccinated people, then they are not pro-choice, they are pro government hiring mandates. |
Yep, the key word here is forced.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66256
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 11:19 |
As someone with a compromised immune system it is the above graphic that gives me heartburn about this whole situation. I think people fail to understand that they are wearing masks to protect others. Maybe this has been scientifically refuted since it first came out last year but my wearing a mask to protect myself only gives me 30% protection from a COVID 19 carrier who is not wearing a mask.
The same goes with vaccinations. Yes, you can choose to not get a vaccination because you don't care if you catch COVID 19 or not. Since there is a 99+% chance most people will survive catching COVID 19, I do understand why there are people who feel this way. Because of my situation, I have no interest in playing COVID-19 roulette. My doctors have informed me that I fall in a high risk category and they recommended that I get the vaccination and the booster shot. So I did. Because of my condition, and the experimental nature of the vaccine, I hope that I am protected, but sadly won't know until I actually catch it whether or not I am protected or not. Again, a risk I would really rather not take.
Which leads to the point of my graphic. I am tired of living in a bubble and wearing a mask anytime that I go out into public. If everybody would just get the vaccine it would make life for people like me that much better.
And for the record, Biden's mandate does include an out for those that don't want the vaccine, which the most vocal anti-Biden folks seem to overlook. They would just have to be tested every week to show that they don't have the virus. Yes. That sucks, but hey at least you do have a choice....unlike the thousands of people with broken immune systems who don't have a choice.
I do find the natural immunity angle interesting. There are numerous stories of people getting COVID-19 multiple times. I think that it has something to do with how much exposure a person had to it and how mild/strong a case they had of it. I've also read that the vaccine plus natural immunity is far stronger than just the vaccine or just natural immunity alone.
Just my two cents. I'm not a scientist and quite frankly don't understand the science. I hate that it seems to have become more about politics that common sense and courtesy to others. And it seems to me that getting the COVID 19 to help your fellow man would be the Christian thing to do and yet it seems to me that it is the Christian political wing that has the most vocal objection to it.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 11:25 |
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^It's good to see you back Scott. I was starting to worry that you or a family memeber got the virus.
Edited by SteveG - October 04 2021 at 11:25
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Snicolette
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 6039
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 12:33 |
A personal anecdote here, just my own experience and not empirical evidence, of course. I do believe in science and have several friends who are experts in infectious diseases, in professional capacity.
I have to say that I was vaccinated (J&J in May) and a few weeks ago, had been exposed. The lady who cuts my hair has a very small shop, there were a total of 4 people in when I was there, we were masked, as per Oregon law. She had chosen to not be vaccinated, she is a bit younger than me. Her son, also not vaccinated, got Covid-19 and was hospitalized and he'd been begging her to get vaccinated. My appointment was on Friday, on the following Monday, she called me to notify me. I don't know yet how sick she got, or if she was asymptomatic.
I have an immune compromised housemate (there are 3 of us here, all vaccinated), and have a very minor heart condition. I luckily did not get Covid-19. I am inclined to believe that the vaccine was helpful for me. I had no side effects from the vaccine, not even a sore arm. I do wear a mask when out in public. I thank Scott for reminding us all, it's more about the other person than it is about you, with masking.
Also, like Steve, good to see you back, Scott. |
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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ProfPanglos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 25 2017
Location: Austin, Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 624
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 12:41 |
When I was in high school (graduated in '84) the catchphrase of the radical left was "Question Authority."
Funny how things change. Now that the radical left is entirely mainstream and even "establishment" - well, don't you dare question them! LMAO.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 12:43 |
Snicolette wrote:
A personal anecdote here, just my own experience and not empirical evidence, of course. I do believe in science and have several friends who are experts in infectious diseases, in professional capacity.
I have to say that I was vaccinated (J&J in May) and a few weeks ago, had been exposed. The lady who cuts my hair has a very small shop, there were a total of 4 people in when I was there, we were masked, as per Oregon law. She had chosen to not be vaccinated, she is a bit younger than me. Her son, also not vaccinated, got Covid-19 and was hospitalized and he'd been begging her to get vaccinated. My appointment was on Friday, on the following Monday, she called me to notify me. I don't know yet how sick she got, or if she was asymptomatic.
I have an immune compromised housemate (there are 3 of us here, all vaccinated), and have a very minor heart condition. I luckily did not get Covid-19. I am inclined to believe that the vaccine was helpful for me. I had no side effects from the vaccine, not even a sore arm. I do wear a mask when out in public. I thank Scott for reminding us all, it's more about the other person than it is about you, with masking.
Also, like Steve, good to see you back, Scott. |
And that's the main thing. Even if it's not a person's main motivating factor, there is inherent selfishness involved by not masking, vaccinating, etc..
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 12:47 |
ProfPanglos wrote:
When I was in high school (graduated in '84) the catchphrase of the radical left was "Question Authority."
Funny how things change. Now that the radical left is entirely mainstream and even "establishment" - well, don't you dare question them! LMAO.
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That rhetoric went out when Trump came in.
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ProfPanglos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 25 2017
Location: Austin, Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 624
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 12:54 |
SteveG wrote:
ProfPanglos wrote:
When I was in high school (graduated in '84) the catchphrase of the radical left was "Question Authority."
Funny how things change. Now that the radical left is entirely mainstream and even "establishment" - well, don't you dare question them! LMAO.
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That rhetoric went out when Trump came in.
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It went out long before Trump.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 14:11 |
ProfPanglos wrote:
When I was in high school (graduated in '84) the catchphrase of the radical left was "Question Authority."
Funny how things change. Now that the radical left is entirely mainstream and even "establishment" - well, don't you dare question them! LMAO.
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Then why in the heck would you want to live in Seattle? You should move to the south, we aren't very left wing, but you will still find plenty of amusing authority figures and their efforts to control that which they can not. Try Tennessee, home of the government mandated truly baffling bathroom sign for those who are afraid the he in the stall next door is actually a she. 
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ProfPanglos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 25 2017
Location: Austin, Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 624
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Posted: October 04 2021 at 14:32 |
Easy Money wrote:
ProfPanglos wrote:
When I was in high school (graduated in '84) the catchphrase of the radical left was "Question Authority."
Funny how things change. Now that the radical left is entirely mainstream and even "establishment" - well, don't you dare question them! LMAO.
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Then why in the heck would you want to live in Seattle?
You should move to the south, we aren't very left wing, but you will still find plenty of amusing authority figures and their efforts to control that which they can not. Try Tennessee, home of the government mandated truly baffling bathroom sign for those who are afraid the he in the stall next door is actually a she. |
Haha, I guess I should update my profile sometime. I moved to Texas over 2 years ago. And even here in Austin (the "blue dot in the red state") it is a total breath of fresh air compared to Seattle. Seattle's a joke, I'd never go back.
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The American Politics Thread
