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aith01 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I think it’s rather irrelevant that you’ve heard nothing like that about Andy. Guess what, neither had Baz? People make errors of judgment that can be out of character. This is presumably what happened with Andy, and he admits that once he started down this path of lies, he found it difficult to stop. But that doesn’t absolve what he did. Just because a rapist has never raped someone before, and no one has ever even suspected them of sexual harassment or assault ever in the past, doesn’t mean that the one time they were unexpectedly accused of rape was an overreaction by the person who was raped by them. I stand with the victim. Always.

And yes, I know that sometimes the victim is not the victim. And sometimes the accused is innocent. I know that because I have been accused of something I didn’t do, and it was something serious enough that I could have been arrested and charged with a crime. The victim was lying, and I was lucky enough to be able to provide enough evidence to show that I was innocent. I don’t need to see the evidence here. Andy has apologised to Baz. He has admitted his guilt and his wrongdoing. But just as a rapist might plead guilty, that doesn’t mean everything suddenly gets to be right, and back the way it was. That doesn’t mean there aren’t consequences. I stand with the victim. I stand with Baz.


It has to do with reputation. Billy Corgan has a reputation for treating people badly, because of repeated behavior over the years.

I've known and followed Andy Tillison since 2006. I've communicated with him via email, and was a member of the old Tangent Yahoo Group/mailing list (back when that was still a thing). Based on the kind of person I believe Andy to be, I don't believe he did any of the Allium stuff out of malice. At worst, it sounds to me like a practical joke that went too far. Should he have done it? In my opinion, no he shouldn't have. However, it's going to take more than one upset post on a forum to radically change my opinion of Andy Tillison that's based on the past ~15 years.

Baz's request/expectation that Andy would pull the album -- which was the work of multiple people, not just Andy, putting hours of their life into the project -- is why I said some perspective might be needed. I say that from experience, being a bit older than Baz myself.

The fact that you use rape as a comparison is a red flag; the two situations are not in any way comparable, much less equivalent.

Baz makes some hefty allegations by calling Andy a 'pathological liar' and saying the album was made "unethically", so naturally I'm hesitant jump to conclusions. I'd like to ask two questions here:

1) What crime is Andy being accused of exactly?

2) How was the Allium album made "unethically"?
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aith01 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by shanocles shanocles wrote:

hmmm... all very interesting reading. but has definitely put some weirdness to what should have been a very exciting release for me - I love RPI.Clap
feel sorry for all the parties involved.
this whole COVID year has messed with peoples minds - too much time at home - idleness breeds troubled waters...


Yes, weirdness is definitely a good way to describe it. It's a sad situation.

I still love Italian progressive rock, even though I'm not much into prog anymore in general, and the Allium release has me excited.
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Originally posted by aith01 aith01 wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

I think it’s rather irrelevant that you’ve heard nothing like that about Andy. Guess what, neither had Baz? People make errors of judgment that can be out of character. This is presumably what happened with Andy, and he admits that once he started down this path of lies, he found it difficult to stop. But that doesn’t absolve what he did. Just because a rapist has never raped someone before, and no one has ever even suspected them of sexual harassment or assault ever in the past, doesn’t mean that the one time they were unexpectedly accused of rape was an overreaction by the person who was raped by them. I stand with the victim. Always.

And yes, I know that sometimes the victim is not the victim. And sometimes the accused is innocent. I know that because I have been accused of something I didn’t do, and it was something serious enough that I could have been arrested and charged with a crime. The victim was lying, and I was lucky enough to be able to provide enough evidence to show that I was innocent. I don’t need to see the evidence here. Andy has apologised to Baz. He has admitted his guilt and his wrongdoing. But just as a rapist might plead guilty, that doesn’t mean everything suddenly gets to be right, and back the way it was. That doesn’t mean there aren’t consequences. I stand with the victim. I stand with Baz.


It has to do with reputation. Billy Corgan has a reputation for treating people badly, because of repeated behavior over the years.

I've known and followed Andy Tillison since 2006. I've communicated with him via email, and was a member of the old Tangent Yahoo Group/mailing list (back when that was still a thing). Based on the kind of person I believe Andy to be, I don't believe he did any of the Allium stuff out of malice. At worst, it sounds to me like a practical joke that went too far. Should he have done it? In my opinion, no he shouldn't have. However, it's going to take more than one upset post on a forum to radically change my opinion of Andy Tillison that's based on the past ~15 years.

Baz's request/expectation that Andy would pull the album -- which was the work of multiple people, not just Andy, putting hours of their life into the project -- is why I said some perspective might be needed. I say that from experience, being a bit older than Baz myself.

The fact that you use rape as a comparison is a red flag; the two situations are not in any way comparable, much less equivalent.

Baz makes some hefty allegations by calling Andy a 'pathological liar' and saying the album was made "unethically", so naturally I'm hesitant jump to conclusions. I'd like to ask two questions here:

1) What crime is Andy being accused of exactly?

2) How was the Allium album made "unethically"?

1) I'm accusing Andy of lying to me for two and a half months and emotionally manipulating me to spend hours working on a project that I thought was us rediscovering an artefact from the 1970s, NOT Andy's new side-project. He used me to ask subtle questions about how the album sounded and how the whole package could look more like a 1970s artefact without breaking character. He used me like a lab rat.

2) Andy HIMSELF admitted that what he did was unethical. It's unethical to lie to people, simple as that. It's unethical to catfish and make someone believe they're working on something they're not.

Andy's words, from the letter he sent me after the phone call:

I created a back story for the album, because such a release would need one. And  huge amount of the things I did, while undeniably wrong, were done of of genuine respect for you and your knowledge.  Like a medical test with placebos, I wanted to find out at what point the music would fail your test. When you would first notice the artificial instruments.    This is a test that I couldn't have carried out without you "not knowing". But it was of course, an unethical test.

See, he uses the word unethical himself and says that what he did was "undeniably wrong". He apologised to me, but I cannot accept the apology and forgive him because it was such a large betrayal of trust.

I also want to go back to something you said earlier, that it's "not about me". I don't mean to sound self-important, but on the phone call, Andy made it quite clear that I personally was the inspiration for the Allium project: "I just wanted to make a beautiful record for you" "I guess there’s just some very sad, lonely part of me that wanted you to like my music."

Also from Andy's letter, that shows just how important he considered me:

Why do I consider you to be such an important team member? Because without you, not a note of it would have been recorded. Your enthusiasm and unbiased help has diverted a musician from his current Tangent album, onto a whole album which has existed only in my head for more than 40 years. That's 40 minutes of music I recreated from memory, because of you. I have lived my life in deep cover, as a member of that band in 1975.   And because of YOU, a totally unknown progressive rock band from 1975 are about to have a concept album released that is all about them, containing impressions of their music that they made on a 15 year old boy who is now a 62 year old fart.  And you have facilitated, inspired and made this happen.

All this has me convinced that he is somewhat obsessed with having my approval, despite doing utterly reprehensible things to me. So believe me when I say, in a lot of ways *it is about me*.

You also asked why I insisted on a public apology. The reason for this: I want people to be aware of the kind of man Andy is. That he could lie, manipulate, catfish and create a "Truman Show"-type fantasy world for someone he considered one of his closest friends. I want his fans to be aware that when they're buying this album, it was made in an "unethical" way, to use Andy's own verbage. For there to be consequences for his unethical behaviour.

On the phone, he told me he would make a public apology if necessary. I deemed it necessary, but then he refused to follow through and blocked me instead. Now here I am, airing this so people can be aware because he doesn't seem to have the courage to be able to do so himself.
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aith01 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by baz91 baz91 wrote:

1) I'm accusing Andy of lying to me for two and a half months and emotionally manipulating me to spend hours working on a project that I thought was us rediscovering an artefact from the 1970s, NOT Andy's new side-project. He used me to ask subtle questions about how the album sounded and how the whole package could look more like a 1970s artefact without breaking character. He used me like a lab rat.

2) Andy HIMSELF admitted that what he did was unethical. It's unethical to lie to people, simple as that. It's unethical to catfish and make someone believe they're working on something they're not.

Thanks for the response, Basil.

I'm not condoning Andy's pretending to be a fictional band/bandmember. I also agree that it's unethical to lie. Period.

My question was "How was the album made unethically?", which I think you still haven't really answered. How was the album itself made unethically? This is music and lyrics put together by a group of musicians, including Jonas, Roberto, and Antonio. Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I can tell from what you've described, the music/lyrics were created separately without your involvement right?

Your initial post used misleading language by asserting twice that the album was "made unethically", but nothing you related describes anything untoward about the actual creation of the album (and I've read your post multiple times to make sure I'm not missing something). I want to make that distinction. That's why I think it's unreasonable to even ask that the album be pulled. What you are talking about is Andy's behavior toward you, the details of which can only be fully known by you and him. 


Originally posted by baz91 baz91 wrote:

Andy's words, from the letter he sent me after the phone call:

I created a back story for the album, because such a release would need one. And  huge amount of the things I did, while undeniably wrong, were done of of genuine respect for you and your knowledge.  Like a medical test with placebos, I wanted to find out at what point the music would fail your test. When you would first notice the artificial instruments.    This is a test that I couldn't have carried out without you "not knowing". But it was of course, an unethical test.

See, he uses the word unethical himself and says that what he did was "undeniably wrong". He apologised to me, but I cannot accept the apology and forgive him because it was such a large betrayal of trust.

Yes he did use the word "unethical" himself. Again though, he's using it to describe the "test" he carried out, not the music's creation.


Originally posted by baz91 baz91 wrote:

I also want to go back to something you said earlier, that it's "not about me". I don't mean to sound self-important, but on the phone call, Andy made it quite clear that I personally was the inspiration for the Allium project: "I just wanted to make a beautiful record for you" "I guess there’s just some very sad, lonely part of me that wanted you to like my music."

Also from Andy's letter, that shows just how important he considered me:

Why do I consider you to be such an important team member? Because without you, not a note of it would have been recorded. Your enthusiasm and unbiased help has diverted a musician from his current Tangent album, onto a whole album which has existed only in my head for more than 40 years. That's 40 minutes of music I recreated from memory, because of you. I have lived my life in deep cover, as a member of that band in 1975.   And because of YOU, a totally unknown progressive rock band from 1975 are about to have a concept album released that is all about them, containing impressions of their music that they made on a 15 year old boy who is now a 62 year old fart.  And you have facilitated, inspired and made this happen.

All this has me convinced that he is somewhat obsessed with having my approval, despite doing utterly reprehensible things to me. So believe me when I say, in a lot of ways *it is about me*.

You also asked why I insisted on a public apology. The reason for this: I want people to be aware of the kind of man Andy is. That he could lie, manipulate, catfish and create a "Truman Show"-type fantasy world for someone he considered one of his closest friends. I want his fans to be aware that when they're buying this album, it was made in an "unethical" way, to use Andy's own verbage. For there to be consequences for his unethical behaviour.

On the phone, he told me he would make a public apology if necessary. I deemed it necessary, but then he refused to follow through and blocked me instead. Now here I am, airing this so people can be aware because he doesn't seem to have the courage to be able to do so himself.

No offense intended, but in a lot of ways it is also not about you. Regardless of whether I think you sound self-important or not, this is a project that involves people other than Andy.

Again, you say that the album was "made in an unethical way". Please explain why you keep saying that, because that's a pretty bold thing to assert. Unless there are more details that you're leaving out surrounding the actual creation of the music and lyrics, it sounds deliberately misleading in my opinion.

If he made a public apology, would you forgive him then?
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@aith01

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse. He made the "unethical test" so that he could shape his project to sound and look more "authentic". Quite how I'm not sure, and I haven't seen how it will look. But in making the album, he deliberately catfished and lied to me to get my feedback on the music and look of the album in order to make changes accordingly. That's what I mean by him making the album unethically.

Also, I'm under no obligation to forgive someone just because they apologise to me, publicly or privately. He should just do it because it's the right thing to do, and I would certainly be surprised and touched if he were to do it now. A lot more healing would have to be done before I forgive him.
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Originally posted by baz91 baz91 wrote:

@aith01

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse.

I'm not being deliberately obtuse, I wanted to make sure I was not missing something. But as it stands, I just don't agree with your line of reasoning.


Originally posted by baz91 baz91 wrote:

He made the "unethical test" so that he could shape his project to sound and look more "authentic". Quite how I'm not sure, and I haven't seen how it will look. But in making the album, he deliberately catfished and lied to me to get my feedback on the music and look of the album in order to make changes accordingly. That's what I mean by him making the album unethically.

This is what I wanted to understand. There's a difference between what you're describing here, and actually taking an active part in the creation of the music.

We may have to agree to disagree, as I believe it's a leap in logic to say that the whole project is unethical because he got feedback from you on the music or artwork under false pretenses. Equating this to "The Truman Show" is a bit much also...


Originally posted by baz91 baz91 wrote:

Also, I'm under no obligation to forgive someone just because they apologise to me, publicly or privately. He should just do it because it's the right thing to do, and I would certainly be surprised and touched if he were to do it now. A lot more healing would have to be done before I forgive him.

You're right, you're not obligated to and I wasn't saying that you are. I agree that if Andy misled you, then he should apologize. Being that it wasn't really a public matter until you made it one here, I still fail to see the need for a public apology (other than that you want to make other people know about this one way or another). But I'm not here to try to argue with you or change your mind. I wanted to understand more about the situation.

It's an unfortunate situation. It's probably still pretty fresh on your mind, but I hope that with time and perspective you'll be able to feel better.


Edited by aith01 - May 14 2021 at 17:16
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Is this conversation also some kind of an experiment or a joke? Perhaps a new concept album about depths of troubled psyche.

How can possibly a "victim" of such joke can be compared to a victim of a serious crime (rape) - it is beyond me. It sounds like an insult to those who are real victims.

Tillison is well-known because of his satirical/ironical lyrics and attitudes - I wonder that "closest friend" does not share such kind of humor at all.

I can understand that someone can feel disillusioned (but not "traumatized"), but personally I think I'd laugh at it and would be honored to be a part of such experiment and de-facto source of inspiration for an album.


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Originally posted by stewe stewe wrote:

Is this conversation also some kind of an experiment or a joke? Perhaps a new concept album about depths of troubled psyche.

How can possibly a "victim" of such joke can be compared to a victim of a serious crime (rape) - it is beyond me. It sounds like an insult to those who are real victims.

Tillison is well-known because of his satirical/ironical lyrics and attitudes - I wonder that "closest friend" does not share such kind of humor at all.

I can understand that someone can feel disillusioned (but not "traumatized"), but personally I think I'd laugh at it and would be honored to be a part of such experiment and de-facto source of inspiration for an album.
I don't think anyone is comparing what happened here with rape, that would clearly be wrong.
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Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by stewe stewe wrote:

Is this conversation also some kind of an experiment or a joke? Perhaps a new concept album about depths of troubled psyche.

How can possibly a "victim" of such joke can be compared to a victim of a serious crime (rape) - it is beyond me. It sounds like an insult to those who are real victims.

Tillison is well-known because of his satirical/ironical lyrics and attitudes - I wonder that "closest friend" does not share such kind of humor at all.

I can understand that someone can feel disillusioned (but not "traumatized"), but personally I think I'd laugh at it and would be honored to be a part of such experiment and de-facto source of inspiration for an album.
I don't think anyone is comparing what happened here with rape, that would clearly be wrong.

As the person who presumably provoked this response from Stewe, I can absolutely assure him that I was not comparing what happened here with rape.
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This behaviour by Andy is neither surprising or out of character. It’s just good to see that someone is brave enough to tell the truth about Andy for once. I am so sorry for what happened to you Baz 91.
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Originally posted by Plain Jane Plain Jane wrote:

This behaviour by Andy is neither surprising or out of character. It’s just good to see that someone is brave enough to tell the truth about Andy for once. I am so sorry for what happened to you Baz 91.

Given that we've only got one side of the exchange in question, "Plain Jane", might you clarify some of your loaded statements that comprise your first and thusfar only post on ProgArchives? The insinuations speak to knowledge you've not chosen to share.
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I read but don’t post. However On this occasion I couldn’t keep quiet. I don’t post on this particular subject because I have been subject to threats from this individual regarding some truth telling on other forums. I just wanted to express sympathy to someone who has been in the same position of myself and some of my close friends.
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Originally posted by Plain Jane Plain Jane wrote:

I read but don’t post. However On this occasion I couldn’t keep quiet. I don’t post on this particular subject because I have been subject to threats from this individual regarding some truth telling on other forums. I just wanted to express sympathy to someone who has been in the same position of myself and some of my close friends.

Plain Jane. I'm not trying to cast doubt onto your, erm, very detailed account (???), but if you 'don't post on this particular subject', why is this the only thing you've joined and posted about? Baz91's posts didn't mention anything about threats received for telling the truth. Your statements are, erm, "Leeds-ing", maybe even mis-Leeds-ing. Threats are a serious crime no matter what jurisdiction you're in, and if a somewhat well-known prog-rock keyboard player has made a habit of threatening you and your friends in retaliation for telling the truth about him, perhaps you could explain how Baz91 is being threatened and in the same situation that you don't post on the subject thereof/you've only posted on the subject thereof. LOL Are you and Baz doing stealth marketing for Andy's record or something? It's a fine record!


Edited by Man Overboard - September 25 2021 at 11:05
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Yes of course that it’s what it is all about. You have caught us out. Andy just wanted to be a little more edgy with this release. Ok I will bow out. Soz anyway I would do anything to promote Andy Tillison he is such a great human being keyboard player and so wonderful to his fans. I can’t tell you how much I am looking forward to getting his new release.   Btw you were barking up the wrong tree with your hints… a little further west . Preston.
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Originally posted by Plain Jane Plain Jane wrote:

Yes of course that it’s what it is all about. You have caught us out. Andy just wanted to be a little more edgy with this release. Ok I will bow out. Soz anyway I would do anything to promote Andy Tillison he is such a great human being keyboard player and so wonderful to his fans. I can’t tell you how much I am looking forward to getting his new release.   Btw you were barking up the wrong tree with your hints… a little further west . Preston.

I, too, am looking forward to Moons Of Neptune. So, "Preston", which hints have I dropped, and what lies a little further west? Are you Leeds-ing me on? Smile
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If Andy really wants to get some attention, have him do a collaboration with Fred Frith, Chris Cutler, Bob Drake, and John Zorn.
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