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The Yes Steven Wilson Remixes... MP3s? |
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Sacro_Porgo 
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Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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 Topic: The Yes Steven Wilson Remixes... MP3s?Posted: June 29 2021 at 21:55 |
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Hey all. I was just listening to my copy of Relayer earlier today, and it occurred to me that my particular record seems to have pretty low fidelity, especially on loud, trebley parts, and most especially in Gates Of Delirium. Sound Chaser is mostly alright, and Soon once again is a bit unclear. Now, first off, it occurs to me I've never listened to the album other than from my vinyl record, so it may be that record just normally sounds this way and I just don't care for that quality of it. However, it sounds more to me like my record was just spun a few too many times before I bought it. Please let me know if this kind of low fidelity is an all around album issue!
But assuming it is, it also occurred to me that I only own one of the classic 70s Yes albums on CD, and that my vinyl copies of everything are all a bit used and scratchy, if not losing fidelity like Relayer. Close To The Edge strikes me as another which I think aught to sound a bit clearer than my copy does. So I then realized an efficient solution might be to get the Steven Wilson remixes, as I've heard wonderful things about them bringing new life into these classic albums. However, I'm not looking at the vinyl box set (for a few reasons: prohibitive cost, the redundancy of owning all of the albums on vinyl already, being sold out on Amazon) Instead I was looking at the mp3 collection on Amazon, which at just under 20 bucks is a great deal for five albums of music. My only question is... does anyone believe the mp3's of the Steven Wilson remixes are worth getting? I've personally never been enough of an audiophile to notice massive differences in sound quality between new vinyl and mp3s, but would I be getting my money's worth buying the remixes on the inferior format? Thanks for giving your opinion in advance!
Edited by Sacro_Porgo - June 29 2021 at 22:00 |
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Catcher10
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Posted: June 29 2021 at 23:12 |
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Lossy files like mp3, wma, itunes are simply that, lossy files. Because of the size of the file, being compressed from the original 24bit, there is musical information missing. Those are not considered higher end music files, so really no reason to compare to the SW digital hi-rez versions or LP versions. That's not even apples and oranges......buy them simply for the price.
My original LP of Relayer in some spots is recorded a bit hot, so you get some of that "loud, trebly parts". Could simply be sibilance from your cartridge, an alignment issue. Either too much or too little anti-skate, VTA or VTF issues. Re-check your cartridge setup first....
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nick_h_nz
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Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Posted: June 30 2021 at 00:55 |
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Honestly, I think you’ve answered your own question. If you’ve never noticed massive differences, then go for it. I’ve never downloaded from Amazon. So I don’t know the quality of their MP3s, but my ears aren’t good enough to notice any great difference between 320 MP3s and FLACS or CDs. (I can’t speak for vinyl because I’ve never listened to vinyl.) Depending on where or how I am listening to MP3s, 256 is fine for me - and whenever I rip my CDs it is generally to 256 - simply because where I listen to MP3s over CDs means I don’t need a higher bit rate, so I can store more at the lower rate. I tend to listen to my MP3 in the car, or on my iPod while I’m going to sleep, neither of which require great fidelity. |
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moshkito
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Posted: June 30 2021 at 06:13 |
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Hi, I always rip/mp3 my CD's at the highest possible setting. Be it the car or some portable mp3 player, doesn't matter for me. I'm not sure that the majority of us can really tell the difference, and that's the reason why we don't work in sound engineering, but my only concern with a lot of the digital this and that redo's is that too many of them are not exactly well defined or good. SW, for me, is merely making it look like the instruments are in different spots and not next to each other, which is bizarre when you play in a band, and everything is next to each other ... and then setup a mix for a band where everything is separate and not "together". Somehow that idea/equation does not factor well in my head and I might need an aspirin or two to make sense of that! Cleaning things up and making sure the background stuff is heard better I can handle, but heck, it takes you listening to Rachel Flowers do a KC song, to realize the little trinket fun that Bill Bruford had during the song ... and that is not even considered or handled in the redone versions! For me, a lot of these mixes do not have a well defined concept in mind about the music or its generation, and implementation. And I don't really see a lot of cleaning up that needs to be done many times, though it seems to sound better, but I think that is a misplaced idea that makes things seem better than they were before. The LP was not exactly the answer for "sound"! HOWEVER there were groups and companies that went to great lengths to improve music recording and things like the old RCA Red Seal were some of the greatest examples of recording done by that time, not to mention that almost all of the orchestral recording procedures underwent an incredible 15 year upheaval and changes which ended up helping someone like Karajan and then Bernstein and others that enjoyed pounding a great moment into your ears, and you remembered the piece! Not to mention that you had to have Tebaldi and Nilsson at the very top of the scale booming each other out of the stage ... and they were on it together! Well, heck, Maria Callas could scream and SW would not make it sound better! One concern ... I get the feeling that too many of these things being redone are done by sub-consciously making sure that the "melody" in the music comes off better and clearer than before, and I'm not sure it is a good thing and that it might instead take away some of the many other things done in the original album. As such, it will be interesting one day to see SW try to do a FAUST album, to show his ability instead of just something that is song oriented. Heck, even better, go try and remix/redo a Klaus Schulze album ... and we know that he like KS and has talked and interviewed him (on one CD already) ... and in that same CD we get an engineer work a piece inside the music that you and I will NEVER EVER FIND ... and make it sound better and if they did not repeat it again, you would not have noticed, and still, you will not find it in the recording! GET YOUR HANDS on that SW! So, for mp3 stuff, the fidelity is an issue, but I don't get into my car (for example) to go witness a concert live with a full orchestra and 1,000 people in the audience ... so I don't see the need for the huge this and that (speakers and boomers!!!) but knowing that you are hearing a reasonable quality is nice. AND, I can crank up Caravan, Guru Guru, AD2, PFM, Banco ... anytime, all the time, as I have over 150 albums mp3'd (by band on each CD) so I can have a choice ... none of that classical bs stuff for me. I listen to albums, not songs!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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richardh
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Posted: July 01 2021 at 01:47 |
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Probably not very helpful but Relayer is a bit like ELP's Brain Salad Surgery , way too much treble and horrid compression. I do believe the cut off is 1972 for many bands where instruments were comfortably spaced in the mix. Sometimes you just have to live with the artistic choices and the technology that was used at the time. IMO
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Catcher10
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Posted: July 01 2021 at 09:48 |
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There are spots in Relayer where the recording is "hot", this could be from either the mastering engineer pushed the volume too much or the mic was placed to close to an amp in the studio. There is no/slight compression on my original LP from '74, nothing like the CD versions from the 90's. What is missing is some low end slam from kick drum, that's it. Squire's bass is mixed well and is present with lots of detail. Howe's guitar sound always has that tinny, thin, steely type sound that is very treble heavy, that may contribute to the overall sound of Yes.
Instruments on the record are spaced well in the mix, I get a very nice soundstage, not as wide as say Fragile though. The big problem I have with CDs and the digital versions is the sustain of sound is missing due to the freq range cut off at 20kHz, some sounds just die off when compared to my '74 LP. That is not what the artist intended us to hear. This will be worse on a 256kps mp3, which BTW I listen to a lot of for background music as I work during the day or on a plane with headphones or in my car......I know what I am missing.
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Padraic
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Posted: August 25 2021 at 11:26 |
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The Wilson remixes are outstanding, and I think he worked miracles with Relayer.
If you're not an audiophile I think the 256 mp3s will be fine.
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moshkito
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Posted: August 31 2021 at 11:41 |
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Hi, If one is an "audiophile", I'm not sure that we would think that SW's remixes are any better or worse. That they are CLEANER is not an issue, because they are, however, to sit and find the "differences" is the same thing as looking for Bernstein's version of The Rite of Spring, or Karhajan's version of The Rite of Spring. At least to my ears. I did listen to one of the KC's albums redone by SW, and while it was nice, I don't think that it fiddled with the original a whole lot, and most remixes probably don't, although I get the feeling that the instruments got moved around a little bit, as if one was now louder and sort of like, behind another instrument. These days, with the quality of recording available, no instrument has to be "behind" another, and in most cases they are heard fairly well, compared to the vinyl stuff in those days when the board master had different instruments at different levels so one would not show up above the other and this became a "rule" when the guitar became the one instrument that was louder than any other ... except those dang snare drums by drummers that don't know how to use them, of course!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Rednight
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Posted: August 31 2021 at 11:57 |
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Steven Wilson remixed Yes albums? Heaven help us!
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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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Sacro_Porgo
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Posted: August 31 2021 at 17:42 |
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So you're saying I should or should not get them?
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Sacro_Porgo
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Posted: August 31 2021 at 17:52 |
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Thank you for all the helpful comments by the way. Believe it or not I'm still debating whether or not to get them! It's not very often I buy things I "already have."
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Sacro_Porgo
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Posted: August 31 2021 at 18:23 |
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Brilliantly, I only just now discovered I can very easily buy individual tracks off of the entire SW remix collection, even songs over 10 or 20 minutes in length. So I just decided to buy the 3 Relayer tracks (as I'm listening to my LP of Relayer right now and wincing a bit at the extreme shrillness of Soon especially). If I absolutely love them, I'll probably buy the rest.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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moshkito
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Posted: September 01 2021 at 08:18 |
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Hi, The statement I made, was that FOR ME if we only considered the choices of mp3 instead of the music itself, then we were doing so on a technical term/way, and not necessarily about the music. I was very clear on that up to and including an example about classical music! Music has a life of its own, and it doesn't matter that so much classical music is now digitized, it is still heard and enjoyed. It doesn't matter to me, if you choose left or right. It only matters to me that you know well enough ahead of the purchases that you want to EXPERIENCE the music itself, and be it on mp3, vinyl or cassette, makes no difference at all ... the music still lives ... your ears and decisions over the external sides of the music were the only things that mattered to you! You are allowing the technical side of the "music" to dictate your tastes and as such soon enough you will lose the interest in the music altogether! The art is endless and has millennia behind it ... the technical side will die tomorrow and be replaced by something else. Make your choice properly ... be in it for the music, not for some idiocy that will be gone tomorrow and replaced by something else ... while the music itself still lives!
Edited by moshkito - September 01 2021 at 08:21 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Progishness
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Posted: September 01 2021 at 11:52 |
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I totally agree - if you're going down the digital route you are far better off opting for the non-lossy .FLAC format, which will sound as good as CD if you have a good soundcard & speaker system (as I have).
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Sacro_Porgo
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Posted: September 01 2021 at 13:13 |
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I'm letting the technical side of music dictate my tastes??? Uh, no actually. I'm just trying to get a better quality recording of Yes' Relayer. My vinyl copy is worn and distorts easily. If anything I'm trying not to let the technical side of things dictate what I listen to, because I really like Relayer and I want to be able to enjoy it without all the distortion from my dull vinyl. Please answer my question straight next time I ask you something, without warning me I'm not actually into "the music" or whatever it is you're going on about here. If I didn't like music, I wouldn't be on this site.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Sacro_Porgo
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Posted: September 01 2021 at 13:14 |
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Any idea where one could legally download FLAC of Yes' Relayer? For future reference, as I've already bought the mp3s from Amazon now.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Progishness
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Posted: September 01 2021 at 13:32 |
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I wouldn't know off hand - I just rip all my CD's to the .FLAC format for my digital music library.
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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."
Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
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Sacro_Porgo
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Posted: September 01 2021 at 14:13 |
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Ah I see. See the problem there is it costs like 40 bucks to get the Relayer remixed by Steven Wilson CD, which it outrageously overpriced I think, but there's no way around it.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Catcher10
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Posted: September 01 2021 at 15:56 |
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You can get the whole Yes SW Remixes as 96kHz/24bit from the HDTracks website, for $22.00
Edited by Catcher10 - September 01 2021 at 15:57 |
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Progishness
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Posted: September 03 2021 at 10:52 |
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There are ways and means which I won't go into, to abide by the forum rules.
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"We're going to need a bigger swear jar."
Chloë Grace Moretz as Mindy McCready aka 'Hit Girl' in Kick-Ass 2 |
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Sacro_Porgo wrote: