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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Points: 4506 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2021 at 06:38
^ "In general", the opposite happened and will likely go on this way, unless "crowds" can somehow get wiser.

Edited by Shadowyzard - August 10 2021 at 06:38
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suitkees View Drop Down
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And let's not confound "objectivity" with "representativeness"...

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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

The list isn't of any interest to me because it's based on polling a wide cross section of people, so it's just a popularity contest. The same can be said of any such list including the PA top 100.
Of course I just enjoy the fact that popularity contests by the people comes out as more interesting than the popularity contests by the "experts" - because the latter group has agendas and a bunch of stupid things that gets in the way of genuine listening. Which is why any noob should rather visit RYM or PA and not RS to find out which Gentle Giant-album to start with or whatever. RS gave their classic albums 1 and 2 stars.
I guess my point is that when you're polling even as many as 300 people, and you're addressing such a wide field as "rock music", it doesn't make any difference if they are "experts" or not, because the particular niches of expertise / interest they have will cover the whole gamut of tastes and genres, and they will in effect cancel each other out. I doubt the results would be importantly different, or more or less interesting, if they'd picked 300 Rolling Stone readers at random. 

Now the poll on doom metal albums of ten people who spend all day listening to doom metal and are obsessed with it...that's going to be a useful list. 


Edited by Mascodagama - August 10 2021 at 06:52
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

And let's not confound "objectivity" with "representativeness"...


Good point! BTW, perhaps in "strange aeons", even Shakespeare might "die" and Ben Johnson might reclaim the throne! Never say never!
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^ And, talking about apples and oranges: why compare the sprinter Ben Johnson to Shakespeare? Wink

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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

The list isn't of any interest to me because it's based on polling a wide cross section of people, so it's just a popularity contest. The same can be said of any such list including the PA top 100.
Of course I just enjoy the fact that popularity contests by the people comes out as more interesting than the popularity contests by the "experts" - because the latter group has agendas and a bunch of stupid things that gets in the way of genuine listening. Which is why any noob should rather visit RYM or PA and not RS to find out which Gentle Giant-album to start with or whatever. RS gave their classic albums 1 and 2 stars.
I guess my point is that when you're polling even as many as 300 people, and you're addressing such a wide field as "rock music", it doesn't make any difference if they are "experts" or not, because the particular niches of expertise / interest they have will cover the whole gamut of tastes and genres, and they will in effect cancel each other out. I doubt the results would be importantly different, or more or less interesting, if they'd picked 300 Rolling Stone readers at random. 

Now the poll on doom metal albums of ten people who spend all day listening to doom metal and are obsessed with it...that's going to be a useful list. 
I see your point, but that's not nessecarely true to me. I guess I'd rather have a doom metal list by people who obsess-and knows about pretty much everything related to music. The obsessors are often limited by their narrow tastes/lack of a broad sonical experience. Like journalists I often find "specialists" in narrow fields quite uniformed in their preferences - with lots of rules to follow.

-I don't really care about any kind of lists apart from my own. I only came by to say that I trust music enthusiasts more than music journalists - and examplified it with RYM's chart - which beats 300 people that get paid for having opinions about music - in every thinkable way.
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

^ "In general", the opposite happened and will likely go on this way, unless "crowds" can somehow get wiser.
I'm not talking about any random "crowd" somewhere on the street. Its rather collectors that "obsess" and are passionate about all kinds of music vs rock journalists.


Edited by Saperlipopette! - August 10 2021 at 07:19
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

^ "In general", the opposite happened and will likely go on this way, unless "crowds" can somehow get wiser.
I'm not talking about a randon "crowd" on the street. Its rather collectors that "obsess" and are passionate about all kinds of music vs rock journalists.

Well, this is a very deep topic to discuss... Micro-crowds or macro-crowds are still "crowds" in my eyes. Specialized "crowds" are also crowds. You may not agree with me though. Of course John Coltrane is not a Michael Jackson or Madonna... Also today's popular genres may not endure the test of time. Who knows... Perhaps in the future the "crowds" will embrace death metal as the leading genre, instead. Big smile

 As I said, this is just my point of view. And I respect yours. I also respect "crowds", and wish really good things for them. And I haven't lost my hope yet. FYI, I don't deem myself as a "special" person. I honestly and really cannot "conform" to the majority's norms and understanding. It has pros and cons. I neither complain about, nor cherish this.

Edited by Shadowyzard - August 10 2021 at 07:24
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Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

So in summary, you're upset because there isn't enough prog rock, or ;eftfield, innovative music in their top 500?

It's Rolling Stone, what did you expect? They're more interested in being 'current' and appealing to as broad a reading audience as possible. If that means upsetting a few thousand KC fans, they can live with that. They can also stick their magazine up their &rse.

^this....
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I like the RYM list as what it is, no complaints there. I don't buy into the idea that objectivity comes with big numbers though.
I certainly do - to an extent. When tens of thousands music lovers of all ages have sent an album like A Love Supreme to the 16th greatest album of all time is simply carries a lot more credible weight (to me) than London Calling at same place over at Rolling Stone.

"Credibility weight" for what exactly? For whether you will like album 1 more than album 2? That may well be true, and can be empirically tested by measuring whether RYM or RS is more in line with your personal ratings.

RYM may well be more in line with yours (otherwise you wouldn't advertise it that much here), RS with those of some others. Based on big numbers one could suspect that RYMs list is in line with more people than RSs list, but that's not at all clear, given that RYM raters are self selected, they are neither a random sample nor in any testable sense representative for anyone else. If 10000 RYM raters love an album, it means that they love that album. That's fair enough and can be taken as a recommendation, but it doesn't really mean more than that bare fact.  You sound as if you think that it means something more than that and even something more than that this is correlated with your personal taste (which as said above can be an empirically valid and testable statement). But beyond that - what do you think it means?

PS: London Calling vs. A Love Supreme is as great an example for apples vs. oranges as they come.
 

Edited by Lewian - August 10 2021 at 09:10
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ And, talking about apples and oranges: why compare the sprinter Ben Johnson to Shakespeare? Wink




This was a joke, right? Because once, an old friend of mine literally thought that I was comparing Shakespeare to the sprinter Ben Johnson. LOL

BTW "Ben Johnson"s pronunciation can be written in Turkish as "ben cansın" and it literally means "I'm you're life", and it comes to mean "I'm you're awesome", which would seem like a misspelling of "sen cansın" (You're awesome). Tongue

Edited by Shadowyzard - August 10 2021 at 09:18
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Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I like the RYM list as what it is, no complaints there. I don't buy into the idea that objectivity comes with big numbers though.
I certainly do - to an extent. When tens of thousands music lovers of all ages have sent an album like A Love Supreme to the 16th greatest album of all time is simply carries a lot more credible weight (to me) than London Calling at same place over at Rolling Stone.


But history might prove a work of art or an artist/band "valueless" after years or centuries. It happened and will most probably happen again. Ben Johnson was EXTREMELY popular at the time, now virtually nobody knows of him except for the people deep into literature. Shakespeare is the opposite example. He even had difficulties to earn a living. These playwrights were from the same period.

The playwright's name is Ben Jonson. I don't know if he was as fast as Ben Johnson, but he did escape some rather nasty bar fights.

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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I like the RYM list as what it is, no complaints there. I don't buy into the idea that objectivity comes with big numbers though.
I certainly do - to an extent. When tens of thousands music lovers of all ages have sent an album like A Love Supreme to the 16th greatest album of all time is simply carries a lot more credible weight (to me) than London Calling at same place over at Rolling Stone.


But history might prove a work of art or an artist/band "valueless" after years or centuries. It happened and will most probably happen again. Ben Johnson was EXTREMELY popular at the time, now virtually nobody knows of him except for the people deep into literature. Shakespeare is the opposite example. He even had difficulties to earn a living. These playwrights were from the same period.

The playwright's name is Ben Jonson. I don't know if he was as fast as Ben Johnson, but he did escape some rather nasty bar fights.

"To speak and to speak well, are two things. A fool may talk, but a wise man speaks."


Oh yeah. I remember that I was wrong in memorizing his surname once. But unfortunately my mind did the same mistake again. I figure, thanks to your correction, I'll not do the same mistake again. Yet, I told the same thing to that old friend of mine in a verbal chat, so his misunderstanding was not my mistake.

P.S. I've not been interested in him yet. We read some of his works at school almost 2 decades ago. That's all. I love more extreme writers, like Christopher Marlowe. Wink

Edited by Shadowyzard - August 10 2021 at 09:45
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I like the RYM list as what it is, no complaints there. I don't buy into the idea that objectivity comes with big numbers though.
I certainly do - to an extent. When tens of thousands music lovers of all ages have sent an album like A Love Supreme to the 16th greatest album of all time is simply carries a lot more credible weight (to me) than London Calling at same place over at Rolling Stone.

"Credibility weight" for what exactly? For whether you will like album 1 more than album 2? That may well be true, and can be empirically tested by measuring whether RYM or RS is more in line with your personal ratings.

RYM may well be more in line with yours (otherwise you wouldn't advertise it that much here), RS with those of some others. Based on big numbers one could suspect that RYMs list is in line with more people than RSs list, but that's not at all clear, given that RYM raters are self selected, they are neither a random sample nor in any testable sense representative for anyone else. If 10000 RYM raters love an album, it means that they love that album. That's fair enough and can be taken as a recommendation, but it doesn't really mean more than that bare fact.  You sound as if you think that it means something more than that and even something more than that this is correlated with your personal taste (which as said above can be an empirically valid and testable statement). But beyond that - what do you think it means?

PS: London Calling vs. A Love Supreme is as great an example for apples vs. oranges as they come.
 
It was just that they were at the same spot (but well A Love Supreme is supreme. History will undoubtly prove me correct) The RYM-list isn't very much in line with my tastes but it simply covers a lot more ground, has deeper musical knowledge and is more open than RS hipster/short memory-list. Other than that:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

-I don't really care about any kind of lists apart from my own. I originally came by to say that I trust music enthusiasts more than music journalists - and examplified it with RYM's chart - which beats 300 people that get paid for having opinions about music - in just about any angle you approach it.

Anyway in general I trust knowledge and experience and very much oppose this cultural relativism where every expression and every opinion has equal worth. It makes us lazy. But the RYM-list and that are two seperate issues that I kind of made a mess of. But I always make a mess of issues such as these. Because of language barriers I come across as more of an elitist than I am - and don't sound as clever as should. Something like that.
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Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I like the RYM list as what it is, no complaints there. I don't buy into the idea that objectivity comes with big numbers though.
I certainly do - to an extent. When tens of thousands music lovers of all ages have sent an album like A Love Supreme to the 16th greatest album of all time is simply carries a lot more credible weight (to me) than London Calling at same place over at Rolling Stone.


But history might prove a work of art or an artist/band "valueless" after years or centuries. It happened and will most probably happen again. Ben Johnson was EXTREMELY popular at the time, now virtually nobody knows of him except for the people deep into literature. Shakespeare is the opposite example. He even had difficulties to earn a living. These playwrights were from the same period.

The playwright's name is Ben Jonson. I don't know if he was as fast as Ben Johnson, but he did escape some rather nasty bar fights.

"To speak and to speak well, are two things. A fool may talk, but a wise man speaks."


Oh yeah. I remember that I was wrong in memorizing his surname once. But unfortunately my mind did the same mistake again. I figure, thanks to your correction, I'll not do the same mistake again. Yet, I told the same thing to that old friend of mine in a verbal chat, so his misunderstanding was not my mistake.

P.S. I've not been interested in him yet. We read some of his works at school almost 2 decades ago. That's all. I love more extreme writers, like Christopher Marlowe. Wink

I prefer Marlowe as well, although he was not as good at bar fights as Ben Jonson. 
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These lists are usually rather idiotic. They always exclude music that those who make the lists have no clue about. Alt least the new list is more diverse than the first one from 2003 which was almost all about (British/American) rock. There is valuable music from other genres and other music cultures as well.

If instead they just called it something like The Editorial's 500 Favourite Albums, it would sound more honest to me, because that is acknowledging that there is great music beyond their (and anyone else's) horizon.

One could of course argue that other music forms aren't necessarily about 'albums'. Classical music f.e. is clearly not...


Edited by The Anders - August 10 2021 at 17:47
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