Covid-19 and the madness of crowds - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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dr wu23

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Posted: July 31 2021 at 16:11

https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahrosenbaum/2021/07/30/why-hasnt-the-fda-fully-approved-any-covid-19-vaccines-yet/?sh=70904928646d

EDIT: fixed (dx)

Edited by DamoXt7942 - July 31 2021 at 18:18

One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

omphaloskepsis View Drop Down

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Posted: July 31 2021 at 16:16

Can you get Covid if you've been vaccinated twice?

Lewian

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Posted: July 31 2021 at 16:48

omphaloskepsis wrote:

Can you get Covid if you've been vaccinated twice?

Sure. Nothing works with 100% reliability.

Tapfret

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Posted: July 31 2021 at 17:07

Probably the FDA, CDC, State DoH, WHO, or any of a host of .edu sites of universities that teach medicine are better places to get those answers than a prog rock forum.

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DamoXt7942 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 31 2021 at 17:30

Anyway in Japan, vaccination for elderly people is going forward relatively well (about 86% have got the first shot and 75% the second already). The number of COVID19 patients and serious ones are increasing sadly, but the number of "elderly" patients are NOT increasing. Recently almost all of elderly patients have NOT got any jab because of their rejection. We medical workers are a bit glad to find appropriate vaccination and prevention of infection (wearing masks, avoiding 3C, and hand washing / sanitizing) should be effective.

Now there are lots of patients suffering from COVID19, who have rejected such important manners mentioned above, sadly. And it's true that lots of medical staffs especially in emergency hospitals are suffering from such patients.

verslibre

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Posted: July 31 2021 at 17:45

dr wu23 wrote:

http://https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahrosenbaum/2021/07/30/why-hasnt-the-fda-fully-approved-any-covid-19-vaccines-yet/?sh=25fb6236646d

Broken link.

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Cboi Sandlin View Drop Down

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Posted: July 31 2021 at 20:17

Tapfret wrote:

siLLy puPPy wrote:

Tapfret wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

Seems to me the practical issue is if hospitals fill up with unvaccinated then it will be harder to get other forms of medical treatment for everyone.

Practical issue? But, but... my freedom. WHAT ABOUT MY FREEDOM??!!!??! ME! ME! ME!

But no. I come in to monitor threads like and I see categorical bullsh*t like "mRNA vaccines are experimental gene-therapy".

You obviously haven't done your homework either. Excuse me, my Toad friend but mRNA vaccines ARE experiential gene therapy injections and absolutely nobody can deny that.

^Don't tell me I don't do my research. Its part of my job! Constant continuing education courses are required to maintain licensure and specialization certification. And many of those required hours over the last year directly pertained to C19. My specialty is oncology, when all hands on deck aren't fighting a pandemic. How cancer scrambles your DNA, gene expression etc. is key to understanding and treating patients with the disease. Additionally, one of my foci in microbiology was phage transduction (antibiotic resistance transferred between bacterial cells by viruses, called phages, that infect bacteria, directly altering gene expression within host bacteria through transfer of DNA). I'm not going to tout myself as an expert. There are people out there with layer upon layer of degrees and peer-reviewed research in immunology, the vast majority of whom are onboard with current treatment modalities. But saying "You obviously haven't done your homework either" is not just arrogant and dismissive of my own work and requirements, but the entire medical profession.

Plus, you just posted a source that directly contradicts your assertions.

"2 How does gene therapy work?

...A new gene is inserted directly into a cell...

6 What are mRNA vaccines and how do they work?

...mRNA from vaccines does not enter the nucleus and does not alter DNA..."

Not gene therapy. End of story!

lol your job is not to research its just to learn the lies and propaganda they put in front of you LOL

SteveG

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 04:08

omphaloskepsis wrote:

Can you get Covid if you've been vaccinated twice?

Yes, but you are less likely to become seriously ill and die from it. You are also less likely to be a "Typhoid Mary", spreading to others, be they vaccinated or not.

This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.

SteveG

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 04:12

According to a 2018 study, people who believe in conspiracy theories tend to show personality traits and characteristics such as:

paranoid or suspicious thinking
eccentricity
low trust in others
stronger need to feel special
belief in the world as a dangerous place
seeing meaningful patterns where none exist

The strongest predictor of belief in conspiracy theories, according to the study, is having a personality that falls into the spectrum of schizotypy.

Schizotypy is a set of personality traits that can range from magical thinking and dissociative states to disorganized thinking patterns and psychosis.

Examples of mental health conditions in the schizotypy spectrum include schizotypal and schizoid personality disorders and schizophrenia.

Not all schizotypy personality traits translate into a personality or psychiatric disorder, though.

Many people have one or two symptoms of schizotypy but don’t qualify for a full diagnosis.

Preliminary research also suggests that belief in conspiracy theories is linked to people’s need for uniqueness. The higher the need to feel special and unique, the more likely a person is to believe a conspiracy theory.

Other personality traits commonly linked to the tendency to believe or follow conspiracy theories include:

narcissism
low agreeableness
Machiavellianism
openness to experience

These are the people we are arguing against.

Edited by SteveG - August 01 2021 at 04:15

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Lewian

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 04:32

@SteveG: Although regarding Covid-19 we may be pretty much in the same "camp", I don't think that branding people with different points of view as pathological will do any good to the discussion. Surely it doesn't serve as an argument against them. I don't even think that the label "conspiracy theory" is very helpful, because surely it is as wrong to claim that there are no conspiracies regarding anything as to believe in some of the more bizarre ones.

SteveG

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 05:37

^ Some theorists sound fairly normal. Others sound bat sh*t crazy. You're intelligent enough to sort them out.

Edited by SteveG - August 01 2021 at 05:40

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Easy Money View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 09:05

Re Cboi Sandlin: You seem to have strong views on medical issues. I was wondering what is your professional job experience in the world of healing and caring for others?

CosmicVibration View Drop Down

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 11:27

Tapfret wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

Seems to me the practical issue is if hospitals fill up with unvaccinated then it will be harder to get other forms of medical treatment for everyone.

Practical issue? But, but... my freedom. WHAT ABOUT MY FREEDOM??!!!??! ME! ME! ME!

Being an RN in one of said hospitals, I have grown tired of trying to explain this to people. Then they come in with C19 and spend days in the ED because there are no inpatient beds available. Last year most of the time it was the same old song and dance if they survived, "I didn't believe it was so bad, I should have worn my mask, I should have stayed away from people like was suggested". Fast forward one year and you can add the line, "I should have gotten vaccinated".

In the U.S. there are roughly 920,000 hospital beds, only 72,000 of those are non-specialty ICU beds. That means there are beds for roughly .2-.3% of the population. Keep in mind, at any given time the vast majority of those beds are full of people who have the regular hospital stuff like heart failure, car accidents, cancer, the various failures that go with trying to drink and eating one's self to death, etc. At one point in the winter of 2018 there were 0 available beds on the entire west coast. So the actual number of additional patient's in a disaster or pandemic type scenario needs to be very small to completely overwhelm the US healthcare system. I shudder to think what would have happened in this country if a handful of those bad 'ol politicians hadn't risked political suicide by initiating lockdowns.

This is not a die or be OK virus like it is painted in the media. If you develop the full C19 pneumonia (the dreaded "ground-glass opacities" found in acute syndrome workup) you are fairly likely to develop pulmonary fibrosis, which does not just go away. Most will be left with a lifetime of respiratory problems and decreased function. I've seen numbers as high is 72% PF for people recovering from acute C19 pneumonia, we'll see how the next 5 years pans out. People, young people end up with clotting cascades that result in strokes and amputations. CT scans show organs filled with clots requiring anti-coagulant therapy.

I come to PA to not have to think about my job and the events of the last 18 months. But no. I come in to monitor threads like and I see categorical bullsh*t like "mRNA vaccines are experimental gene-therapy". Or my favorite, "What’s happening now is that we’re creating 2nd class citizens and heading towards a totalitarian system"... are you serious with that crap? Take that snowflaky nonsense to whatever sub-Reddit echo chamber will tolerate it.

You know who doesn't have freedoms? Somebody who has a f**king tube jammed down their trachea with a machine breathing for them.

I'm sick of this! I'm sick of the malignant individualism and expectation of freedom without responsibility. Flying flags out the back of giant Tonka trucks like that makes you some kind of patriot by default. I'm sick of cherry-picked data and people digging through the web until they find that one "renegade scientist" that confirms their bias. Hey, what the hell, there's a fairly popular fad diet doctor out there who will tell us all that vegetables are killing us. Better gulp down that corporate cheese burger, but don't eat the tomato. Its deadly poison produced by big tomato!

For the most part what you composed is a steaming pile of bull crap. A lot to unravel, so for now I’ll just address your favorite, which coincidentally I wrote. This issue is extremely important..

Or my favorite, "What’s happening now is that we’re creating 2nd class citizens and heading towards a totalitarian system"... are you serious with that crap?

What would you call a societal system that treats a large part of their population as outcasts? How would you describe those people? Would you consider them as 2^nd class citizens? Would you label that as discrimination?

I’m assuming you’re at least aware of some of the places that currently require vaccination. Kids can’t go to school. A large part of the population will lose their jobs. People are excluded from some pubs and venues. Biden just ordered tough new vaccination rules for all federal employees. How could anyone not see the trajectory of where this is heading?

If you’re not vaccinated you may soon not be able to go to a grocery store for food. Would you be ok with that?

In your honest opinion do you think there should be a mandate for everyone to get vaccinated? Or just certain individuals such as health care workers?

progaardvark View Drop Down

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Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 11:39

SteveG wrote:

According to a 2018 study, people who believe in conspiracy theories tend to show personality traits and characteristics such as:

paranoid or suspicious thinking
eccentricity
low trust in others
stronger need to feel special
belief in the world as a dangerous place
seeing meaningful patterns where none exist

The strongest predictor of belief in conspiracy theories, according to the study, is having a personality that falls into the spectrum of schizotypy.

Schizotypy is a set of personality traits that can range from magical thinking and dissociative states to disorganized thinking patterns and psychosis.

Examples of mental health conditions in the schizotypy spectrum include schizotypal and schizoid personality disorders and schizophrenia.

Not all schizotypy personality traits translate into a personality or psychiatric disorder, though.

Many people have one or two symptoms of schizotypy but don’t qualify for a full diagnosis.

Other personality traits commonly linked to the tendency to believe or follow conspiracy theories include:

narcissism
low agreeableness
Machiavellianism
openness to experience

These are the people we are arguing against.

I also like this phrase in the abstract: "prone to perceiving agency in actions and profundity in bullsh*t."

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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions

progaardvark View Drop Down

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 11:51

Cboi Sandlin wrote:

Tapfret wrote:

siLLy puPPy wrote:

Tapfret wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

Seems to me the practical issue is if hospitals fill up with unvaccinated then it will be harder to get other forms of medical treatment for everyone.

Practical issue? But, but... my freedom. WHAT ABOUT MY FREEDOM??!!!??! ME! ME! ME!

But no. I come in to monitor threads like and I see categorical bullsh*t like "mRNA vaccines are experimental gene-therapy".

You obviously haven't done your homework either. Excuse me, my Toad friend but mRNA vaccines ARE experiential gene therapy injections and absolutely nobody can deny that.

Plus, you just posted a source that directly contradicts your assertions.

"2 How does gene therapy work?

...A new gene is inserted directly into a cell...

6 What are mRNA vaccines and how do they work?

...mRNA from vaccines does not enter the nucleus and does not alter DNA..."

Not gene therapy. End of story!

lol your job is not to research its just to learn the lies and propaganda they put in front of you LOL

"The mRNA from the vaccines does not enter the cell nucleus or interact with the DNA at all, so it does not constitute gene therapy."

Source: https://www.genomicseducation.hee.nhs.uk/blog/why-mrna-vaccines-arent-gene-therapies/

----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions

Snicolette View Drop Down

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 12:19

From a personal friend with the following credentials: Professor at Veterans Health Administration (VHA) - U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs; Director at Inserm; Former Professor at Mt. Sinai Medicine; Studied Biology at Columbia University; Studied Bs Biology at University of California, Santa Barbara

There seems to be considerable confusion regarding what a vaccine can and cannot do. A vaccine introduces a harmless version or dead virus into your body and in the case of mRNA and newer AdV-based vaccines, it introduces a small part (i.e. spike protein) into your body.

If all works as expected, the immune system 'sees' this foreign protein and mounts an immune response such that if ever exposed again, a full immune response can occur in hours if not days (depending on factors that I won't go into here now). This ultimately leads to the elimination of the virus from the body before the virus progresses too far and overwhelms the infected individual.

In rare cases, a vaccine leads to the generation of a 'sterilizing' antibody response in which the virus is eliminated within minutes after entry into the body. Clearly, none of the Covid19 vaccines have elicited a sterilizing response to any great extent and doubtful this occurs in the case of the 'delta' variant, but they are saving lives in numbers that are undeniably and overwhelmingly convincing.

But here is what vaccines DON'T do:

1-They do not keep the virus from entering your body. If you are near an infected individual, you will breathe the virus in through your nose or your mouth. There is no 'magic' forcefield afforded by a vaccine that stops this. Only a mask will work.

2-They do not keep the virus from multiplying, at least for a short time, in your body. There is a time-lag between exposure and immune-mediated viral elimination. The vaccine shortens that time considerably.

3-The 'delta' variant of Covid19 appears to multiply faster and evade any sterilizing and some of the neutralizing responses gained by vaccination. The end result is that viral loads (amount of virus in the body and in particular lungs and nose) reach higher levels faster.

4-The end result to number 3 is that even those vaccinated, while typically asymptomatic, can spread this variant.

So...let's NOT be surprised when you hear that a bunch of vaccinated people not wearing masks and not socially distancing or taking any other precautions are found to test positive. Posting such things ("OMG, a friend just tested positive AFTER getting the vaccine...") is NOT a surprise and serves to undermine confidence in vaccination. What IS a surprise is if they get seriously ill or die. If those %s creep upwards, we are in trouble. That is the only issue to watch.

Just because you don't get ill does not mean that you do not spread this disease. Hope this clears things up.

"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp

Atavachron View Drop Down

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 13:03

SteveG wrote:

According to a 2018 study, people who believe in conspiracy theories tend to show personality traits and characteristics such as:

paranoid or suspicious thinking
eccentricity
low trust in others
stronger need to feel special
belief in the world as a dangerous place
seeing meaningful patterns where none exist

The strongest predictor of belief in conspiracy theories, according to the study, is having a personality that falls into the spectrum of schizotypy. Schizotypy is a set of personality traits that can range from magical thinking and dissociative states to disorganized thinking patterns and psychosis.

To the extent that most people have some or most of those traits, "Seeing meaningful patterns where none exist" strikes me as the most distinctive and most unfortunate. That's John Nash stuff, and it explains a lot.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy

Lewian

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 13:05

CosmicVibration wrote:

Not sure what the situation in the US is, but in Europe you can have a Green Pass not only if you're vaccinated but also (for a short time, to be renewed) with a negative test result or if you have natural immunity. Anyway, does it create second class citizens that people are not allowed running around shooting others? You have the choice to be vaccinated. If you don't, there'll be regulations stopping you from putting others at risk. That's fair enough in my book.

CosmicVibration View Drop Down

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 13:08

Snicolette wrote:

From a personal friend with the following credentials: Professor at Veterans Health Administration (VHA) - U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs; Director at Inserm; Former Professor at Mt. Sinai Medicine; Studied Biology at Columbia University; Studied Bs Biology at University of California, Santa Barbara

But here is what vaccines DON'T do:

4-The end result to number 3 is that even those vaccinated, while typically asymptomatic, can spread this variant.

Just because you don't get ill does not mean that you do not spread this disease. Hope this clears things up.

A vaccine introduces a harmless version or dead virus into your body and in the case of mRNA and newer AdV-based vaccines, it introduces a small part (i.e. spike protein) into your body.

Further clarification on this point.. While a traditional vaccine introduces a harmless version or dead virus into your body the mRNA technology does not. It’s a set of instructions for your cells to produce or make the spike proteins; software for the body.

The mRNA technology was used on cancer patients over a decade ago with mixed results. The software was different with a different set of instructions.

CosmicVibration View Drop Down

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Posted: August 01 2021 at 13:13

Lewian wrote:

CosmicVibration wrote:

In the US there is no choice to prove that you have immunity. Which is a huge disconnect from science and logic.

You would be ok if the mandates keep expanding and individuals are not allowed employment or access to supermarkets?