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Logan View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


A lot of people who do complain about Miles Davis in JRF are not thinking about his electric Miles period. I'm happy to see albums like Get Up With It, Black Magus, Agharta and Pangaea in PA. I supported him for his 1969 through 1970s period, but I could see why one wouldn't. I also supported Hancock, mostly for his Mwandishi Trilogy, Thrust and Death Wish soundtrack, and of course that led to various related Mwandishi acts being included (Eddie Henderson, Maupin, some with similar jazz-funk qualities, like Lenny White, Julian Priester...)


I feel like Squarepusher is the one artist in that category who is pushing it the most: I think few people would ever associate the type of music he's most known for nowadays with jazz, let alone progressive rock. Nonetheless, I totally agree that "Hard Normal Daddy" and "Music Is Rotted One Note" are notable milestones in the jazz fusion sphere and that this site would be poorer without them. For certain, I believe that any jazz fusion archive without Miles Davis's electric albums is fundamentally incomplete, and yes, having "Kind Of Blue" listed as the highest rated jazz fusion album as an inadvertent result of that is rather silly, but I would deem that a necessary sacrifice considering the website's imperfect design. Better to be too inclusive than to be too exclusive, I say.
Just last month I nominated Dani Lee Pearce for inclusion in the database, who has in recent times mostly pursued a synthpop/folktronica style but started off her career with some of the most fascinating prog music of the last decade. You bet I'll be mentioning her in this thread if she ends up getting rejected! LOL

As for artists who object to being associated with a certain genre... I don't feel like such a thing is entirely up to them to decide. King Crimson rejects the progressive rock label and Frank Zappa was pretty openly disdainful of progressive rock if I recall correctly, but I think everyone here would agree that it's for the better that both of them are included here as well.


If Herbie Mann gets included, he'll be pushing it with Push Push.

Nothing substantial to add even if I still manage to push in a few paragraphs, but wonderful post. I would rather we err or the side of inclusion than exclusion. I'm not a fan of the complete discography policy (or labeling bands rather than albums), but it is what it is as it is said (I can see benefits of having a complete discography policy). Like Squarepusher, Buckethead, Headpusher, Squarehead, Squarebucketpusher etc., and various others, Dani Lee Pearce does have quite the substantial discography, and it can be harder when substantial parts of the discography doesn't fit. Many years ago I suggested that we add another category to Various Artists, which is an album based category (treated as subgenres) for ones with many/most non-PA appropriate albums so we could just highlight those.

I would think that there would be quite few artists who just don't like getting labeled, and Prog has a rather pretentious reputation. Zappa was a funny one. Disdainful of progressive Rock and praising of The Shaggs as better than the Beatles. Actually, a very sensible man.*

* For Catcher's benefit.

I enjoyed what I heard of Dani. I love folktronica, so will want to check that out too.
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The thing i would like to see most here is the ability to tag albums instead of just artists.

That alone will tell a visitor exactly which albums belong here.

I'm fine with Miles Davis here but am perplexed by artists like Oingo Boingo, Talking Heads, Coil, much of progressive electronic, a lot of Indo-raga rock that has no rock and psychedelic folk artists like Linda Perhacs who aren't prog at all.

As far as Buckethead, i have reviewed all 360 or whatever albums he has put out and i can tell you for sure that a few of those are bonafide prog albums and a scant few are some of the most sophisticated mind blowing prog that you could ever possibly hear!

I'm on a Rainbow reviewing kick lately and although i love the band i honestly don't know why they are here either!

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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:


Kate Bush:- From Crossover Prog to Prog Related



Do we still offer electo-shock therapy for comments like this?



Good thing we're sticking to civil, reasoned debate/ discussion    Count me in for the electro-cock therapy treatment too. I love Kate Bush, not that matters, but I do know her albums, and don't really care one way or the other, but I think as an art pop and progressive pop artist she isn't very well-suited to a Prog category (despite what Prog qualities she does have). Of course I'm willing to be convinced otherwise (that bit about keeping an open-mind).

Isn't the best prog the kind that can't be pigeonholed into a category?  She's unpredictable, uses meter changes, tempo changes, never follows the norm, she's original, she pushes boundaries, everything that prog is about, especially in her earlier albums.  Okay, so she might not be well-suited for any one prog category, but having her in Crossover Prog is better than saying she is only prog-related.  (Personally, I'd put her under Eclectic, but that's just me.)  

The electro-shock therapy is something offered to all members......isn't it?  (That's what they told me anyway.)

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^^ Good post, Puppy. And that's a lot of Buckethead.

Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:


Kate Bush:- From Crossover Prog to Prog Related



Do we still offer electo-shock therapy for comments like this?



Good thing we're sticking to civil, reasoned debate/ discussion    Count me in for the electro-cock therapy treatment too. I love Kate Bush, not that matters, but I do know her albums, and don't really care one way or the other, but I think as an art pop and progressive pop artist she isn't very well-suited to a Prog category (despite what Prog qualities she does have). Of course I'm willing to be convinced otherwise (that bit about keeping an open-mind).


Isn't the best prog the kind that can't be pigeonholed into a category?  She's unpredictable, uses meter changes, tempo changes, never follows the norm, she's original, she pushes boundaries, everything that prog is about, especially in her earlier albums.  Okay, so she might not be well-suited for any one prog category, but having her in Crossover Prog is better than saying she is only prog-related.  (Personally, I'd put her under Eclectic, but that's just me.)  

The electro-shock therapy is something offered to all members......isn't it?  (That's what they told me anyway.)




Prog tends to delve into various genres and be genre bending and agneric in a sense. There is some really good to my ears stuff in PA that does clearly fit one category, but that too could be given multiple genre tags if we had that system. I think there are many progressive pop (and other kinds of progressive music) artists who do that that I wouldn't particularly associate with Prog Rock. I have no problem with her in Crossover, and there is space for very adventurous artists in Prog Related. A lot of my favourite acts who I think make interesting music I would think of more as Prog-Related than Prog proper. It is such a big umbrella term. Prog-related is in no way a lesser category to me, by the way. I think there's plenty of seriously good and interesting music in there (especially outside of the usual names).

As for the electro-shock therapy, I noticed after I typed that I wrote something a little different (a c instead of an sh in shock). I do make typos, but with two letters off, it may have been a Freudian slip, or maybe I'm just special so I get the good treatment.

Edited by Logan - June 21 2021 at 19:08
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^^ Good post, Puppy. And that's a lot of Buckethead.

Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:


Kate Bush:- From Crossover Prog to Prog Related



Do we still offer electo-shock therapy for comments like this?



Good thing we're sticking to civil, reasoned debate/ discussion    Count me in for the electro-cock therapy treatment too. I love Kate Bush, not that matters, but I do know her albums, and don't really care one way or the other, but I think as an art pop and progressive pop artist she isn't very well-suited to a Prog category (despite what Prog qualities she does have). Of course I'm willing to be convinced otherwise (that bit about keeping an open-mind).


Isn't the best prog the kind that can't be pigeonholed into a category?  She's unpredictable, uses meter changes, tempo changes, never follows the norm, she's original, she pushes boundaries, everything that prog is about, especially in her earlier albums.  Okay, so she might not be well-suited for any one prog category, but having her in Crossover Prog is better than saying she is only prog-related.  (Personally, I'd put her under Eclectic, but that's just me.)  

The electro-shock therapy is something offered to all members......isn't it?  (That's what they told me anyway.)




Prog tends to delve into various genres and be genre bending and agneric in a sense. There is some really good to my ears stuff in PA that does clearly fit one category, but that too could be given multiple genre tags if we had that system. I think there are many progressive pop (and other kinds of progressive music) artists who do that that I wouldn't particularly associate with Prog Rock. I have no problem with her in Crossover, and there is space for very adventurous artists in Prog Related. A lot of my favourite acts who I think make interesting music I would think of more as Prog-Related than Prog proper. It is such a big umbrella term. Prog-related is in no way a lesser category to me, by the way. I think there's plenty of seriously good and interesting music in there (especially outside of the usual names).

As for the electro-shock therapy, I noticed after I typed that I wrote something a little different (a c instead of an sh in shock). I do make typos, but with two letters off, it may have been a Freudian slip, or maybe I'm just special so I get the good treatment.

When it all comes down to it, there are a lot of different ways to interpret different genres, and that is what is so great about a collective such as ProgArchives in that we get different viewpoints of how to interpret things and the bands that are in the archives are voted on by the teams, so you get collective viewpoints in each genre.  It's not so simple as asking why a certain band or artist is under a certain category, whether they should be included or not and so on.  It's the viewpoint of more than one or two people and things show up here based on a collective vote.  You can't just point the finger at a few individuals.

I guess I've always considered art pop mostly progressive and have been a little more lenient that way.  I would be putting Grizzly Bear, Fleet Foxes, The Flaming Lips and Of Montreal in here if it were me.  I love a lot of the alternative prog bands that tend to get shunned here often, but again, I'm just one vote and I try not to question how others interpret it, but once in a while, I have to make an offhanded comment.

Anyway, long live Kate Bush style prog.

Shhh I hear the therapy cart coming down the hall again.

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Originally posted by projeKct projeKct wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

The main concern still is, that many of these changed some over time, and then later they did not fit.
Maybe we should create a new subgenre: "Progressive Prog" ? Tongue

Back on topic, I don't get why Tori Amos is included in PA. I love much of her albums, but this is no prog at all.

Do we know why she was included back then? I would like to know.

The real problem is that if we accept Tori Amos as "prog", we have to accept lots of similar artists!

Such as the fantastic An Pierlé ... I love her even more than Tori Amos! Just listen to her excellent second or third albums... and her first album is pretty good too, like Kate Bush on steroids!

Yup, An has made a bunch of great album plus a bunch of experimantal projects (including a few with Pascal Comelade) and though she'd be a better fit that Tory, I'd rather not see Pierlé on ProgArchives just yet.



Edited by Sean Trane - June 22 2021 at 07:07
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The only problem I see with Tori Amos and Kate Bush is that they are in different categories, when I would have expected to see them in the same category. I definitely have no problem with either being in PA. And, truth be told, I don’t really even have a problem with where they are. I would rather an artist is recognised and included in PA - even if in the “wrong” section, than not included at all.

I think there are a few bands that seem to be in odd places, but perhaps at the time it was simply an expedient and pragmatic way of ensuring they were included at all. If you allow a band to ping pong between genre teams too long, it tends to be rejected - regardless of however prog it might be. I suspect a lot of bands that are generally regarded as prog have slipped through the cracks at PA because of how rigidly at times the genre teams have guarded their domain.

Sometimes it is simply a way of getting a band into PA. It may look out of place, but it is in. And then, once it is in it is less likely to be removed, and has instead more opportunity to be moved. This thread could potentially be really useful (albeit also giving genre teams extra work), as there is potential to move bands and artists to more appropriate places. But I really don’t think it’s a bad thing, per se, to find a band or artist in an unexpected genre. While it might not be immediately obvious, there was very likely a good reason for it at the time.
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I guess as the inspiration for this thread I should say something. Wink

I could list many a band here, but I won't because it would just be a massive waste of time. In short...there are many bands listed here that violate one of the two main tenants of this site...that the bands/artists listed have to be both progressive and rock. I suppose the former has a bit of leeway to it (although I wouldn't say all that much) but the latter should be pretty clear cut. So, basically, all those free/avant jazz bands in RIO, or proper jazz artists in JRF, or even those extreme metal bands who get so far away from 'rock' music I think overstep the lines (there are probably more examples as well but I repress alot these days Tongue). I suppose the non-progressive rock is worse (I'll mention Cardiacs here, as was requested Wink) as I can see the point of a progressive music website (even if that's not the scope of this particular website). I also wouldn't have prog-related on here at all (and yes I know its not counted as 'proper' prog). I can understand proto-prog but prog-related just seems like an attempt to justify the addition of someone's favorite band from the 70s. Which to me undermines the credibly of the site...but its just a website so I try not to get hung up on it. And its very clear this isn't my website (and these days it feels as if I'm completely unnecessary here) so I have no expectations that it should bow to my will nor do I expect most people to agree to any of the words I just wrote. 

I also feel compelled to say that I'm not symph prog purist or anything like that. I'm glad things like RIO and Krautrock and JRF are here and definitely agree that they should be. 
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Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

In short...there are many bands listed here that violate one of the two main tenants of this site...that the bands/artists listed have to be both progressive and rock. I suppose the former has a bit of leeway to it (although I wouldn't say all that much) but the latter should be pretty clear cut.


I don’t know rock being clear-cut at all. It’s probably as nebulous, arbitrary and subjective a concept as prog. Just as I find it amusing to see people differentiating between what is rock and what is pop. Often yesterday’s rock would be seen as pop today. Certainly the two are not mutually exclusive. And there is definitely no shortage of prog within pop (rock or not). Likewise, jazz and pop. Jazz was pop before rock was pop. Now hip hop and r&b is pop.

I also find it interesting that just because music becomes more extreme, it is no longer rock. I’ve never come across someone, until now, who doesn’t consider metal a form of rock (even if it is not a form they enjoy). And therefore if an extreme metal band shows progressive tendencies, they are both prog and rock.

Everything changes over time. Black Sabbath were heavy as f*** when they first came on the scene, but it’s not uncommon to see youngsters in total confusion as to how anyone might consider the band metal, because they don’t seem heavy at all by today’s standards. There is, I guess, a spectrum of rock that is very light and airy at one end, and extreme metal at the other. This gives rise to rather pointless arguments about where hard rock begins and ends, and where heavy metal begins and ends, and the difference between rock and hard rock or metal and heavy metal, etc. etc. etc.

Rock is definitely a broad concept, and there is little in PA that does not fit with the definition given by the site, somewhere in the discography of a given artist or band. A Kind of Blue could easily be argued to be a prog album, but it would be much harder to argue it as a rock album. But there are other Davis albums that fit both rock and prog. When it comes to jazz, PA is more exclusive than inclusive, purely because it does focus on the rock side of things. There are some incredibly progressive artists and bands that have been rejected for PA, because there was not enough rock - so I honestly don’t think the rock (or lack thereof) is the problem you make it out to be.

In fact, I’m sure you could incite an argument on this forum just as easily by saying X isn’t rock, as you could be saying X isn’t prog. There are a heck of a lot of bands and artists in PA that I don’t think of as rock, but I can still recognise why they’re here. Asia is pretty much pop pap to me, but I know some people love them. I like a load of pop music, so I’m no snob when it comes to pop music, but Asia have never done it for me. But I’d be a fool to suggest they don’t belong in PA.
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I like the broad church approach and am happy with everyone who's here. I'm not happy with some who are not here though. Please include Irmin Schmidt (and be it in "related") before anyone is kicked out!!

And by the way, re Cardiacs, I think it is irrelevant if a musician doesn't like the term prog for their music. There are lots of very good reasons for not wanting to be put in a certain box, but this shouldn't stop those who love the music and think it's related enough to that box to list it in order to make more people aware of it who could discover and love it.
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As long as Phil Collins is not listed here I have no complaints.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

As long as Phil Collins is not listed here I have no complaints.

Thankfully, it's Against All Odds that Phil Collins will ever be listed here. Tongue
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

As long as Phil Collins is not listed here I have no complaints.

Thankfully, it's Against All Odds that Phil Collins will ever be listed here. Tongue


About 20 years ago or so when I used to sort and price the music & video stuff in a large branch of Oxfam his solo albums on vinyl used to get donated on a very regular basis.

Most of them ended up in the bin as you literally couldn't give them away.


Edited by Progishness - June 22 2021 at 06:01
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Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

As long as Phil Collins is not listed here I have no complaints.

Thankfully, it's Against All Odds that Phil Collins will ever be listed here. Tongue


About 20 years ago or so when I used to sort and price the music & video stuff in a large branch of Oxfam his solo albums on vinyl used to get donated on a very regular basis.

Most of them ended up in the bin as you literally couldn't give them away.
That'd explain why nearly every charity shop I've been into has at least one Phil Collins CD on sale. Smile

Seeing as you're in Norwich, maybe they could have been given away on Sale of the Century. Tongue

You may recall that's where Simon Cowell made his first TV appearance, long before the X-Factor.....



Edited by Psychedelic Paul - June 22 2021 at 06:26
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I'm a bit of a charity shop addict now I'm almost retired - I rarely look at the music as most of it is crap (tho Oxfam does have fairly decent stuff), but DVD's are as cheap as chips just now - I have bought many good films for 50p or a pound, or box sets for 3 to 5 quid.  Sometimes I donate DVD's back once watched, assuming that I don't want to retain them for my collection.


Edited by Progishness - June 22 2021 at 06:39
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Originally posted by TCat TCat wrote:



Anyway, long live Kate Bush style prog.
 

Amen!
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Metallica ? Albeit under prog-related, what a forced inclusion to my ears.
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By the way, regarding another line of the discussion, do we all agree that who's here and who's not is massively more important than in which categories they are once they are here?
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

By the way, regarding another line of the discussion, do we all agree that who's here and who's not is massively more important than in which categories they are once they are here?


Broadly yes - many artists probably would fit in more than one sub-genre as their musical style evolves over time... I still think there should be some discussion regarding who does/doesn't belong in crossover and prog-related - a very murky area indeed which we'll probably never agree on entirely..
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I don't object to the inclusion of any artist listed in the archives. I'm also fairly unconcerned about their listed sub genres, but what does baffle me is why anyone would object to the likes of Queen or Rush..

Doesn't make any sense to me, but I guess it comes down to how we individually define progressive rock, or at least the sub genres thereof. I'm fairly broadminded about it all really.
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