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UEFA Euro 2020 Football Championship
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Poll Question: Which team do you support?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
0 [0.00%]
2 [6.25%]
1 [3.13%]
1 [3.13%]
2 [6.25%]
7 [21.88%]
1 [3.13%]
1 [3.13%]
2 [6.25%]
1 [3.13%]
2 [6.25%]
1 [3.13%]
1 [3.13%]
1 [3.13%]
4 [12.50%]
1 [3.13%]
1 [3.13%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [3.13%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [3.13%]
1 [3.13%]
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Points: 4506 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2021 at 06:10
^ If you touch the leg of an attacker who is in motion, before touching the ball, that is not a "tackle" but a foul.

Of course every position should be assessed seperately. Here, Mbappe could have made a swift movement, and prevent the tackle if his movement had not been hindered by the touch. And the defender's touch is not THAT slight. I see nothing but a penalty here. I thought the same way before seeing the position again, actually. The "touch" surely was not like a soft kiss, but a shaky hug. Wink

You can watch it here: (4:15 and onwards) 

What is more: the ball didn't go far away. Mbappe surely fell down because of the defender's foul. So if he didn't fall, he could score the goal. That makes it even more of an obvious penalty.




Edited by Shadowyzard - June 16 2021 at 06:16
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

You are allowed to touch the attacker, it has to be deemed careless or reckless to become a foul. It's not a non-contact sport.

This is what the rules say (they add "excessive force"). The refs have a lot to interpret there (the rules actually give definitions of these terms, but none of them involves what happens to the attacked player or where the ball goes). There's nothing in the rules that refers to "falling", actually not even to playing the ball, let alone how soft the touch was. There is a reference to "contact" but that assumes that it is considered careless, reckless, or using excessive force. 

Edit: Oh actually I was kind of wrong, the rules also say, a little bit below, that "impeding an opponent with contact" counts, so that's probably the best case to make here. One could still argue though that Mbappe wasn't really impeded as the ball was lost anyway. 

More edit: Even later they say: "Impeding the progress of an opponent means moving into the opponent’s path to obstruct, block, slow down or force a change of direction when the ball is not within playing distance of either player." So then, if "impeding" is the same as "impeding the progress" at least, it wasn't "impeding" as the ball was there.

Haha, a mathematician reads sports rules... and finds himself puzzled about all those ambiguities.


Edited by Lewian - June 16 2021 at 06:41
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Points: 4506 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2021 at 07:02
Sorry but I see absolute clarity that this is a penalty. All the things I said aside, the German defender's contact with the ball was affected by and after his contact with Mbappe. So, his "tackle" (!) would surely have been different, if he hadn't touched (it is even a "hit", sorry) Mbappe's leg.
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Sorry but I see absolute clarity that this is a penalty. All the things I said aside, the German defender's contact with the ball was affected by and after his contact with Mbappe. So, his "tackle" (!) would surely have been different, if he hadn't touched (it is even a "hit", sorry) Mbappe's leg.

You talk about what you see. I talk about what's in the rules. Wink The ref didn't give it and the VAR didn't challenge that. These are trained professionals. Personally I'm not even sure. I'm not trying to make the case that it wasn't a penalty, I'm rather saying that the typical fan tends to not make such calls based on proper knowledge of the rules, but that's required. "Absolute clarity" is a nonsense. 


Edited by Lewian - June 16 2021 at 07:09
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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^ I can see absolute clarity in something, of course. What is nonsense here?

If someone, not lazy like me, can inform us with the professionals' takes on this particular position, I'll be thankful. I'll be hugely surprised if more than 20% of them says that this is not a penalty.

Edited by Shadowyzard - June 16 2021 at 07:13
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I'm not a professional but I am a referee (though seeing as I was paid for each game I am maybe a professional), and I think is one of those really close borderline cases that is not black or white. As described above contact is allowed, but in the box and from behind there is very little contact needed to qualify. 
If the referee had given the penalty I think VAR would have backed him as it not being an obvious error. Similar by not giving it they didn't see it as an obvious error.
Also remember the referee is seeing it once in real time at full speed and needs to make a quick decision. It is then checked to see if it was an obvious error.


Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - June 16 2021 at 07:23
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Points: 4506 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2021 at 08:09
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Also remember the referee is seeing it once in real time at full speed and needs to make a quick decision. It is then checked to see if it was an obvious error.


Which is precisely why I blamed VAR... 

Again yesterday, in another match, there was a position where Fiola was alleged of a handball against Ronaldo... I think it was a penalty too, but it was not this obvious... Well, obvious for me! I respect other opinions too, though don't take that much into consideration when I'm sure about something. Tongue


Edited by Shadowyzard - June 16 2021 at 08:13
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The determiner in Mbappe's position, I conclude, is; he was hit, and the hit itself caused him to fall. Not the tackle itself. And that hit was made BEFORE the tackle (though it is not a tackle for this reason).

Edited by Shadowyzard - June 16 2021 at 08:25
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Can we trust in the neutrality of the Swiss?

http://switzerland.in-24.com/sport/News/6812.html

"Kylian Mbappé takes Mats Hummels At ten meters three from it and practically pulls alone on the goal. Hummels straddles Mbappé in the penalty area first in the legs and then hits the ball. The referee wrongly decides: no penalty!"



Edited by Shadowyzard - June 16 2021 at 09:19
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Good for the Danes that Russia won 1-0 over Finland. It keeps the hope alive that maybe we can still qualify in spite of the tragedy and the loss to Finland. I´m not sure we can win or even get a draw against Belgium, but at least now there is a chance for a final aginst Russia in the last game. I can´t see Finland make another suprise result against Belgium.
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Points: 14679 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2021 at 10:42
Wales-Turkey is quite entertaining, as was Finland-Russia, and actually a good number of duels between underdogs. Thumbs Up Don't only watch the big guns or your home nation!


Edited by Lewian - June 16 2021 at 10:43
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Wales-Turkey is quite entertaining, as was Finland-Russia, and actually a good number of duels between underdogs. Thumbs Up Don't only watch the big guns or your home nation!


I guess our (Turkey's) match is in Azerbaijan, and in a place with a very humid climate. It is said to be 26°C as of now.

Not an excuse anyway... We are not good. Hoping for some sort of a minor miracle to win...
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Genius stuff from Wales, both goals. Sorry Turkey!
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A couple of pretty embarrasing situations from the Turks in the match against Wales (who deservedly won the game). Huge goalkeeper mistake, which almost resulted in a Bale goal and that last goal....puuuh that was extremely lame defending. Amaturs in that situation. Wales followed their gameplan and can be satisfied with their game.
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^ Nope... Wales was trash today too. Though they were composed and decently organised. Which made the difference. I don't see that they will have any sort of success with such a play.

We were horrible, really. Probably the worst I've seen in many years, perhaps even ever!
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Anyway, I can declare my FULL support for Italy now. Approve
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

^ Nope... Wales was trash today too. Though they were composed and decently organised. Which made the difference. I don't see that they will have any sort of success with such a play.

We were horrible, really. Probably the worst I've seen in many years, perhaps even ever!

In another forum (actually a footie forum) I was declaring my dissatisfaction with how Germany had played yesterday and everybody told me, but it was against the world champions, they were quite good actually etc. Maybe we are too critical when our team loses...

I found the game super entertaining, I liked it a lot. Lots of chances on both sides. Some genius moves by Gareth Bale. Not denying that Turkey made some big mistakes in the defence and offensive play was often spoiled by cheap mistakes as well. But that's football. We're never going to have perfection. Wales won a point against Switzerland and Switzerland were quite good. I think this is just a strong group.


Edited by Lewian - June 16 2021 at 12:39
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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^ The problem, my dear friendHug (and nemesisEvil Smile), is... Turkey is making (made) too many amateurish mistakes, and a composed and well-organised team can (and did) take advantage of one or two, at worst. Besides, our "force" is not great too. So, we cannot (and couldn't) compensate for our mistakes with our power.

I agree that Germany was very bad too... But you, at least, have some real power...

Wales was... ugh... really weak... But they have some chance still, if they somehow get some motivation. As they don't play amateurishly, at least...

My guess is France will be the champion, but I'll only give them 51% chance for that. This is a long journey, and football is the most chaotic major sports branch. There's always a room for surprises...

I'll support Italy, but how about a real surprise? That would be too cool too!

Edited by Shadowyzard - June 16 2021 at 13:00
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Wales played quite well, they were pretty solid at the back, fairly creative going forward and had the best 3 players on the field in Bale, Ramsey and James. I enjoyed the game, Wales should have had the game killed off earlier.
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Shadowyzard View Drop Down
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Points: 4506 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2021 at 14:58
^ Bale was horrendous (perhaps the worst, perhaps a little less horrendous than our Burak) till the last part of the match... Did we really watch the same "thing"? 

Edited by Shadowyzard - June 16 2021 at 15:01
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