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Are RUSH actually Prog?

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verslibre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2021 at 23:36
^That is so weird... Unhappy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 00:14
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Guys we have to argue RUSH are prog but don't compare them to other prog bands that's not fair, lmao.

WHAT THE f**k.

Sounds like you've lost the plot, FZ. This isn't about other bands, this is about other genres.

But go ahead and compare Rush to the B-52's. Be my guest. LOL

Bro this thread is just way 2 prog 4 me.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 01:20
Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Talking about American bands, the missus actually bought tickets for us for Alice Cooper coming here to Birmingham in October.
She had never seen Alice Cooper live but wants to see him.

You are in for a treat!  I saw Alice on the "School's Out" tour, July 28, 1972!   From what I've seen on YouTube, he still has the touch!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 01:40
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Alan Cartright, bassist for Procol Harum from 1972 to 1978, was bullied out of the band for playing with a pick instead of his fingers.

Lot of people have very strong views about using a pick.  A friend of mine who plays bass and likes a lot of prog/fusion can't quite bring himself to like Squire for that reason. Confused

They are totally different in how they are used.  I play with both fingers (all five on both hands) and Herco plectrum, i.e. Squire, Strater and many others. 

Greg Lake said it best....he played round-wound strings with a plectrum to "emulate the lower notes of a piano."   A close listen to his music with ELP and KC bears this out. 

Squire was the master of the plectrum technique....during one part in "The Revealing Science of God," he plays a fretless Guild bass with a plectrum, and emulates the sound of an orchestra tympani drum, including its change of pitch.  Absolutely brilliant and haunting! 

When Tony Levin filled in for Squire in the ABWH project, he had to invent a way to duplicate Squire's staccato attack, so he invented what he called "funk fingers" - short drum-sticks that he held onto his fingertips with rubber bands, allow him to hammer onto the round-wound strings as rapidly as Squire could play with a pick! It was brilliant to watch him onstage with ABWH!  

BTW, Chris Squire and Stanley Clarke were huge fans of each other's techniques!! 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 01:51
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Alan Cartright, bassist for Procol Harum from 1972 to 1978, was bullied out of the band for playing with a pick instead of his fingers.

Lot of people have very strong views about using a pick.  A friend of mine who plays bass and likes a lot of prog/fusion can't quite bring himself to like Squire for that reason. Confused

They are totally different in how they are used.  I play with both fingers (all five on both hands) and Herco plectrum, i.e. Squire, Strater and many others. 

Greg Lake said it best....he played round-wound strings with a plectrum to "emulate the lower notes of a piano."   A close listen to his music with ELP and KC bears this out. 

Squire was the master of the plectrum technique....during one part in "The Revealing Science of God," he plays a fretless Guild bass with a plectrum, and emulates the sound of an orchestra tympani drum, including its change of pitch.  Absolutely brilliant and haunting! 

When Tony Levin filled in for Squire in the ABWH project, he had to invent a way to duplicate Squire's staccato attack, so he invented what he called "funk fingers" - short drum-sticks that he held onto his fingertips with rubber bands, allow him to hammer onto the round-wound strings as rapidly as Squire could play with a pick! It was brilliant to watch him onstage with ABWH!  

BTW, Chris Squire and Stanley Clarke were huge fans of each other's techniques!! 





People that argue about preference of the tool use most often themselves severely lack in creativity regardless.

I've played for years with a pick and get nothing but compliments on my playing, sound, feel, and technique. The most human thing is to miss the forest for the trees and think there's some universal check mate system for arguing a subjective enterprise such as any form of artistic expression has objective lanes you need to stay in, lol.

People's inability to think creatively is only matched by their ease of being entertained by absolutely stupid sh*t like someone using a violin bow to play guitar. THAT'S cool; using a pick to play an electric bass GUITAR that makes the notes pop, allows for more harmonic control in tone, and precision? Nope, you suck!

This points me back to my first assertion here.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 02:23
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

^That is so weird... Unhappy

It's like John Mayer saying he doesn't like Jimmy Page's guitarwork because Page plays Gibson (Mayer is a "Strat guy").  The specificity of it can get quite ridiculous, he makes it sound like a Strat is a totally different instrument and not just a different make.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 03:04
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:


People that argue about preference of the tool use most often themselves severely lack in creativity regardless.

I've played for years with a pick and get nothing but compliments on my playing, sound, feel, and technique. The most human thing is to miss the forest for the trees and think there's some universal check mate system for arguing a subjective enterprise such as any form of artistic expression has objective lanes you need to stay in, lol.

People's inability to think creatively is only matched by their ease of being entertained by absolutely stupid sh*t like someone using a violin bow to play guitar. THAT'S cool; using a pick to play an electric bass GUITAR that makes the notes pop, allows for more harmonic control in tone, and precision? Nope, you suck!

This points me back to my first assertion here.

Thanks for sharing!  I'm 66 and have played bass for 50 of those.  I play "Close to the Edge" on a Rickenbacker bass to warm up, using a pick. 

This is my hand-made Manson bass guitar, made by Hugh Manson of Exeter, UK.  Hugh is Steve Howe's luthier and also builds basses and other instruments for John Paul Jones, Martin Barre, and many others.  I only play this finger-style.  JPJ has the evil twin of mine, his is fretted - he calls it "Eric the Red." 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 04:00
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Alan Cartright, bassist for Procol Harum from 1972 to 1978, was bullied out of the band for playing with a pick instead of his fingers.

Lot of people have very strong views about using a pick.  A friend of mine who plays bass and likes a lot of prog/fusion can't quite bring himself to like Squire for that reason. Confused

There is a lot of snobbery around picks and fingers amonst bass players. Personally I think it's all nonsense - I play mainly with fingers these days but for a different sound or for a lot of faster notes I use a pick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 04:12
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:


People that argue about preference of the tool use most often themselves severely lack in creativity regardless.

I've played for years with a pick and get nothing but compliments on my playing, sound, feel, and technique. The most human thing is to miss the forest for the trees and think there's some universal check mate system for arguing a subjective enterprise such as any form of artistic expression has objective lanes you need to stay in, lol.

People's inability to think creatively is only matched by their ease of being entertained by absolutely stupid sh*t like someone using a violin bow to play guitar. THAT'S cool; using a pick to play an electric bass GUITAR that makes the notes pop, allows for more harmonic control in tone, and precision? Nope, you suck!

This points me back to my first assertion here.

Thanks for sharing!  I'm 66 and have played bass for 50 of those.  I play "Close to the Edge" on a Rickenbacker bass to warm up, using a pick. 

This is my hand-made Manson bass guitar, made by Hugh Manson of Exeter, UK.  Hugh is Steve Howe's luthier and also builds basses and other instruments for John Paul Jones, Martin Barre, and many others.  I only play this finger-style.  JPJ has the evil twin of mine, his is fretted - he calls it "Eric the Red." 



Excellent, Mate! that's a beautiful bass! I have an Ibanez fretless 5 string, I love it. I'm mainly a guitar player (love that tremolo bar LOL) but playing bass exclusively for a good 7 years or so made me such a more well rounded musician. It all clicks like a big picture puzzle! Makes for making better prog with self and others lol Cool.

Cheers! Beer

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 10:42
Rush are not as proggy as fellow country mates Saga, Mystery, Pollen, Maneige, Sloche, Opus-5, Hamdryad, Harmonium, The D Project, Conventum, or even Ptarmigan. 

Too me, Rush were always more like Classic Rock--like The Who, Thin Lizzy, Queen, REO Speedwagon, 707, Loverboy, Journey, Foreigner, Boston, Ted Nugent/Damn Yankees, Def Leppard, and Bon Jovi.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 10:52
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Rush are not as proggy as fellow country mates Saga, Mystery, Pollen, Maneige, Sloche, Opus-5, Hamdryad, Harmonium, The D Project, Conventum, or even Ptarmigan. 

Too me, Rush were always more like Classic Rock--like The Who, Thin Lizzy, Queen, REO Speedwagon, 707, Loverboy, Journey, Foreigner, Boston, Ted Nugent/Damn Yankees, Def Leppard, and Bon Jovi.


Hmm, there's a whole world of difference between Xanadu and Livin' on a Prayer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 12:34
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Rush are not as proggy as fellow country mates Saga, Mystery, Pollen, Maneige, Sloche, Opus-5, Hamdryad, Harmonium, The D Project, Conventum, or even Ptarmigan.

Saga's nowhere near as proggy as those other bands, though. Saga's first three albums are wonderful, like a hybrid of Yes and early Styx with a dual keyboardist format and an almost exclusive reliance on Moog synths. I mean they used just about every Moog that was available at the time: MiniMoog, MicroMoog, PolyMoog, MemoryMoog, Liberation, you name it. You can see them in the Silhouette concert footage. So if you're a Moog freak and you haven't heard Saga's first few albums (Saga, Images at Twilight, Silent Knight, Worlds Apart), give them a listen.

Saga transitioned away from complex arrangements during the recording of 1983's Heads or TalesBehaviour and Wildest Dreams (which saw the exit of two key members) sound, er, worlds apart from what they'd done before — very FM friendly. But they never regained the momentum they had with Worlds Apart and they've never toured the US. After a few duds, they were back in form with 1999's Full Circle, an album I regard as one of their best. They resumed the "Chapters" and an approach closer to Silent Knight and Worlds Apart for the first time in years. The next few albums are really good!

A friend of mine went to bassist Jim Crichton's Van Nuys studio (before he moved back to Canada) and met the line-up that recorded Trust. They were all there, in the midst of recording! They let a few select fans stop by one afternoon. I was stuck far away at work and couldn't make it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 12:41
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

When Tony Levin filled in for Squire in the ABWH project, he had to invent a way to duplicate Squire's staccato attack, so he invented what he called "funk fingers" - short drum-sticks that he held onto his fingertips with rubber bands, allow him to hammer onto the round-wound strings as rapidly as Squire could play with a pick! It was brilliant to watch him onstage with ABWH!

Not to be that guy, but Tony Levin was already using the Funk Fingers with Peter Gabriel. It was Jerry Marotta who suggested Tony tie the sticks to his fingers because Tony was trying to replicate Marotta's percussive phrase (the one he played on bass strings for "Big Time") on tour. Tony credits his bass tech for making the first Funk Fingers for him.

The funny thing about ABWH: When I saw them, Tony was ill and none other than Jeff Berlin was filling in! What a trip!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 17:54
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

When Tony Levin filled in for Squire in the ABWH project, he had to invent a way to duplicate Squire's staccato attack, so he invented what he called "funk fingers" - short drum-sticks that he held onto his fingertips with rubber bands, allow him to hammer onto the round-wound strings as rapidly as Squire could play with a pick! It was brilliant to watch him onstage with ABWH!

Not to be that guy, but Tony Levin was already using the Funk Fingers with Peter Gabriel. It was Jerry Marotta who suggested Tony tie the sticks to his fingers because Tony was trying to replicate Marotta's percussive phrase (the one he played on bass strings for "Big Time") on tour. Tony credits his bass tech for making the first Funk Fingers for him.

The funny thing about ABWH: When I saw them, Tony was ill and none other than Jeff Berlin was filling in! What a trip!

Actually, it was GABRIEL who invented the concept, by fooling around and playing Levin's bass strings with drumsticks in the studio once! 

I was actually paraphrasing Levin's own words from an old interview, i.e. Funk Fingers allowed him to emulate Squire's attack.  Thanks for the additional information!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 18:25
Yes, but was Geddy's mullet prog?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 19:27
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

When Tony Levin filled in for Squire in the ABWH project, he had to invent a way to duplicate Squire's staccato attack, so he invented what he called "funk fingers" - short drum-sticks that he held onto his fingertips with rubber bands, allow him to hammer onto the round-wound strings as rapidly as Squire could play with a pick! It was brilliant to watch him onstage with ABWH!

Not to be that guy, but Tony Levin was already using the Funk Fingers with Peter Gabriel. It was Jerry Marotta who suggested Tony tie the sticks to his fingers because Tony was trying to replicate Marotta's percussive phrase (the one he played on bass strings for "Big Time") on tour. Tony credits his bass tech for making the first Funk Fingers for him.

The funny thing about ABWH: When I saw them, Tony was ill and none other than Jeff Berlin was filling in! What a trip!

Actually, it was GABRIEL who invented the concept, by fooling around and playing Levin's bass strings with drumsticks in the studio once! 

I was actually paraphrasing Levin's own words from an old interview, i.e. Funk Fingers allowed him to emulate Squire's attack.  Thanks for the additional information!

You're right, it was Peter's suggestion that he "attach the sticks to his fingers," but Tony said it was Jerry, not Peter. Then again, it happened a long time ago. Those guys probably don't remember or care. LOL (But it was definitely a few years before ABWH.)

"It started when, on Peter Gabriel's SO  album, Jerry Marotta drummed on the bass strings for Big Time. Later, on tour, I was trying to simulate the riff with one stick - one day Peter looked at me doing it and said 'Why don't you attach the sticks to your fingers?' I turned to Andy Moore, my tech at the time, and asked him, 'Can we do that, Andy?' (Of course, I said 'WE' but HE's the one who designed a way to do it - first with a strap, then with a cutout and elastic loops for fingers.) We modified them a lot, and came up with a comfortable shape and different lengths for the two fingers."

FUNK FINGERS FAQ & FEEDBACK (papabear.com)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 19:29
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Yes, but was Geddy's mullet prog?

At its proggiest for Power WindowsClap


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 19:30
Why does this thread just go on and on?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 19:32
Because guys like you keep checking it!  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2021 at 23:33
The problem nobody is addressing is how to quantify prog, and by what standard?

Is RUSH more prog than PF? Is KC the standard? Is YES the archetype?

How many progs is 1 prog, and whom has the most OF it...?

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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