![]() |
What is happening in Jerusalem? |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1 23456 16> |
Author | ||
Guldbamsen ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Thanks...I should probably have known
![]() |
||
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
||
![]() |
||
rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
That depends again, unfortunately, on your chosen echo chamber. There is this on the one hand, blatant misreporting by NYPost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjMN_bHuWEA&t=183s On the other hand, yes, there is indeed a contingent that makes it out like an outright massacre by Israel of Palestine and ignores that Hamas started with the rocket launches. As Trump once said, "What you think you're so innocent?" ![]() As I said in my earlier comment, if everyone is busy blaming each other, it does mean everybody is to blame. And as Guldbamsen put it, an individual or collective sense of ego seems to get in the way of acknowledging faults on one's own side before that of others. I do appreciate that you started out by mentioning where Israel erred. This is sadly the spirit that is missing in most quarters or at least the most vociferous ones (which dominate the discourse).
Edited by rogerthat - May 16 2021 at 05:07 |
||
![]() |
||
twseel ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 15 2012 Location: abroad Status: Offline Points: 22767 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
The talk about the media reminds of a book I read not too long ago, a pretty successful book in the Netherlands by Joris Luyendijk who was a journalist in the Middle East before and during the Iraq War. Of course not all of it applies to the parties involved here, but he describes how impossible it is to get an objective framing of events when governments and leaders have heavy investment in looking favorable to the outside world, the press is guided towards cherry-picked items and interviewees and even the local inhabitants are left unsure about what to believe. I don't know what the freedom of press in Israel is like right now (in the reporting on the conflict I mean), but the book at least includes the Israel of back then as one of the examples.
Either way that did make me a lot more wary and skeptical about news reporting from conflict areas by any media, so I would agree that in this case that it might be better to hold off on discussions on the finest details of this or that terrible act as reported facts seem to be confusing and contradictory all the way down, especially right after the event. But hey, I don't follow the news too closely anyways so I might be wrong in this case...
|
||
![]() |
||
![]() |
||
BaldJean ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
in the 2020 Freedom of Press Index Israel ranked 86th of 177 countries. for comparison: the USA ranked 46th, Germany ranked 13th. the top 4 were Norway, Finland, Sweden and Denmark
Edited by BaldJean - May 16 2021 at 16:23 |
||
![]() A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
||
![]() |
||
The Dark Elf ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13229 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Nothing is worth the information unless it has context. In the 2021 Freedom of Press Index Israel ranked 86th of 177 countries. https://rsf.org/en/ranking/2021 Interestingly enough, all these Middle-Eastern countries ranked far lower: 105. Kuwait 107. Lebanon 122. Afghanistan 128. Qatar 129. Jordan 131. United Arab Emirates 132. Palestine 133. Oman 153. Turkey 163. Iraq 165. Libya 166. Egypt 169. Yemen 170. Saudi Arabia 173. Syria 174. Iran In context, it would seem that Israel has far more freedom of the press than all their neighbors (and of course, all their enemies). As for any other cultural conclusions, I will leave that to you. P.S. And you are reviewing outdated material, my dear. The U.S. jumped up a whole 2 spots to 44 in 2021's index. WOOT! Edited by The Dark Elf - May 16 2021 at 16:33 |
||
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
||
![]() |
||
SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Edited by SteveG - May 16 2021 at 16:55 |
||
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
||
![]() |
||
Shadowyzard ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: February 24 2020 Location: Davutlar Status: Offline Points: 4506 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
FYI, The Dark Mind, I can't speak Elvish but can speak English and use Twitter. So, I'm not bound to be informed by our media. Plus, we have some really good press mediums too. Plus, I don't deem my country as Middle-Eastern.
The problem here is... No matter how we, the rest of the world, try to explain some things to you (to a large portion of the Americans with some hapless mindsets); it'll be in vain. A VERY LARGE number of you don't even know where my country is. Some of my American customers said that, "Ah Turkey, it was in Africa right?" And most of the rest have to be reminded that there's "a country near Greece." I don't give a f**k, but feel sorry for you... I prefer Chinese wisdom to pseudo-Elvish one. ![]() Edited by Shadowyzard - May 16 2021 at 23:21 |
||
![]() |
||
Shadowyzard ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: February 24 2020 Location: Davutlar Status: Offline Points: 4506 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Back on topic, my country (Turkey) widely uses the term "terör devleti" for Israel, whenever they attack Palestinians. But it is too obvious that this is just a Muslim reflex/reaction. It doesn't even mean "a terrorist state", but rather "terror state". Which doesn't make much sense, more than a hasty and careless outburst. I think they want to mean, "a state that exerts terror".
Anyway, this is just a FYI. I don't back this statement up. I feel and think exactly like Lewian on this matter. Also, like Guldbamsen said, peace. ![]() Edited by Shadowyzard - May 16 2021 at 23:45 |
||
![]() |
||
oguzeren ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() Joined: May 16 2021 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Someone from which countries can post their opinions here, may I ask? The fact that so many journalists are jailed in my country does NOT mean all citizens are supporting that. And if one is democrat enough to be against that, he/she would also be aware that this "someone from Turkey..." sentence is pure discrimination. Don't get me wrong, I will never support the current regime, and that's why I moved to Europe four years ago. The area is chaos, thanks to the support from all countries (including mine) to several armed groups which are active in middle east. I'm not an expert at all, but I keep reading about islamic / kurdish / whatever groups receiving a lot of support... It's easy to blame the current Turkish regime, but it's actually a result of all these activities in the area, throughout the last few decades. Maybe beginning with the cold-war era.
|
||
![]() |
||
The Dark Elf ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13229 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
The attack of the impotent Turks. ![]() I don't really give a damn about what you think, however I do know where Turkey is. A simple WIKI look up will suffice: The Middle East is a transcontinental region in Afro-Eurasia which generally includes Western Asia (except for Transcaucasia), all of Egypt (mostly in North Africa), and Turkey (partly in Southeast Europe). The term has come into wider usage as a replacement of the term Near East (as opposed to the Far East) beginning in the early 20th century. The broader concept of the "Greater Middle East" (aka the Middle East and North Africa or the MENAP) also includes The Maghreb, Sudan, Djibouti, Somalia, the Comoros, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and sometimes Transcaucasia and Central Asia into the region. From an historical perspective and for all intents and purposes, Turkey ceased to be a European country once Constantinople fell in 1453. For the next 469 years the Ottoman Empire ruled a primarily Middle-eastern set of provinces including what is now Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon and Iraq, the Muslim fringe of North Africa, and the European Balkans. As a medievalist, I can discuss the history of Byzantium all day, if you wish. We can also discuss the partitioning of the empire in the Treaty of Sèvres in 1920. In conclusion, I offer you a message from Sgt. Hulka.... |
||
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
||
![]() |
||
Shadowyzard ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: February 24 2020 Location: Davutlar Status: Offline Points: 4506 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Greg, dear Greg. This was not an attack at all... I really don't want to call you "delusional", but you're tempting me... If I had to place bets, I might put all my fortune on "Greg knows where Turkey is."
![]() The Middle-East thing is disputable, even if we ignore the fact that the West is categorizing everything, and draws the "maps". I'd be delighted to learn some Medieval stuff from you. I'm also very interested in (albeit not very knowledgeable on) Medieval Europe. Care to do something about that, like creating polls, initializing discussions etc.? Yours Middle-Easternly, ![]() Özgür. |
||
![]() |
||
SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Ozgur (sorry but my keyboard doesn't have umlauts), please remember that it's the victors who write the histories. And draw the maps.
![]() |
||
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
||
![]() |
||
Shadowyzard ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: February 24 2020 Location: Davutlar Status: Offline Points: 4506 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() I can never forget that... We, Turks, are far from being saints in this regard, either. I really admire the countries who are totally honest about writing their histories, if there are such countries. Perhaps Thomas knows... But, this is not the proper place for this, I think. Edited by Shadowyzard - May 17 2021 at 11:08 |
||
![]() |
||
tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Edited by tszirmay - May 17 2021 at 18:57 |
||
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
|
||
![]() |
||
SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Edited by SteveG - May 17 2021 at 20:05 |
||
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
||
![]() |
||
rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
But this kind of definition of Middle East is useless for Asians. We usually refer to the Gulf states (plus Iraq and Iran) when we say Middle East. Kazhak/Afghanistan/Turkmenistan is Central Asia. Morocco/Egypt are the mediterranean states while Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia fall in Eurasia. Pakistan and Bangladesh along with India are part of South Asia or the Indian subcontinent however defined (I prefer South Asia as it is broader and includes countries like Myanmar). And the reason for doing so is that these regions are all culturally different. You will not find Mughal architecture anywhere in the Gulf, for instance (unless somebody decided to copy it and build a 20th century tribute to decadence). Likewise, the typical layout of mosques seen in the Gulf is absent in Pakistan or India (which as everyone knows or should know was just one country prior to 1947). Pakistanis write in Urdu but not Arabic and while Urdu script is radically different from Hindi, spoken Urdu sounds almost exactly the same. Any definition of Middle East that includes Pakistan or even Afghanistan makes no sense to me. You may say that is just my opinion but these definitions sound suspiciously Westernized to me. It may be more convenient from a Western perspective to just lump all these countries in one basket. But that does not impose any obligation on others to see it the same way nor does it make us 'wrong' if we disagree. I don't doubt that you know the history of Levant inside out. But the definition of Middle East you have cited is nevertheless too broad.
|
||
![]() |
||
ssmarcus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 05 2019 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 261 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
1937 Peel Commission partition plan - rejected unanimously by arab parties. 1947 UN Partition Plan - rejected unanimously by all arab nations and interested parties. Follow up the plan with an invasion leaving all of the West Bank in the hands of Jordan and Gaza with Egypt. Absolutely no progress made by arabs to give Palestinians an autonomous state in those territories. 2000 Camp David Summit - Arafat was offered a state, rejected it, and instigated the intifada which, among other things, including suicide bombing restaurants and buses. 2008 Ehud Olmert Peace Proposal - Rejected by Mahmoud Abbas. Maybe you think its time for a Palestinian state, but the Palestinians dont seem to think so. Or at least certainly not a state limited to the West Bank and Gaza. For the record, the I am of the belief that the creation of a Palestinian state will result in a security and humanitarian crisis for both Israelis and Arabs far worse than anything any of us have experienced until this point.
In sum, if you care about life, you should oppose the creation of a Palestinian state under current conditions. |
||
![]() |
||
ssmarcus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 05 2019 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 261 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
This is a pretty ignorant comment and shows you know basically nothing about the conflict. I mean sure there's a tribal element, but 5000 years? Judaism as a religion isn't even that old! Are you not aware that Jews regularly lived in Isalmic lands peacefully? Are you not aware that the Arab and Jewish self-determination movements that precipitated the conflict in the early 20th century were largely secular and socialist? Maybe read a book or two before embarrassing yourself on the internet.
|
||
![]() |
||
ssmarcus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 05 2019 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 261 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Man I don't even know where to start on this one. "I don't see Israel attacking Iran " - Hate to break it to you, but just because SteveG doesn't see something, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Israel has been attacking Iran clandestinely for a decade now. This includes, among other things:
"just pummeling the settlement areas." - By all means, please enlighten as the last time Israel conducted any air strikes in the West Bank... I assume you are referring to the latest round of fighting in which GAZA is being "pummeled" by Israeli air and artillery. But of course Gaza has not had a single Jewish resident since 2005 when Israel unilaterally withdrew all settlers from the territory. |
||
![]() |
||
ssmarcus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 05 2019 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 261 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
You are obviously very ignorant of both Nazi history and Israeli history.
With hot takes like this, its no wonders your album reviews are such trash. There's just something fundamentally broken in how you perceive reality. |
||
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1 23456 16> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |