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Are RUSH actually Prog?

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Un Amico View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Un Amico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2021 at 00:37
It's good to finally find some common ground!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2021 at 01:43
Originally posted by Un Amico Un Amico wrote:

It's good to finally find some common ground!
More than you think. I'd rather listen to Bridge of Sighs than any Rush album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Un Amico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2021 at 02:54
I have nothing against Rush...but Trower is a giant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Un Amico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2021 at 02:55
AND he had James Dewar...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2021 at 09:14
Originally posted by Un Amico Un Amico wrote:

I do not doubt it. After being told for 50 years that what one does is called 'Progressive' and not having a better word for it, one does eventually give in and accepts the honors and the adoration.
Not sure what you mean here, what would you like it to be called? It is 'Progressive' because its progressive, its a noun not an adjective like the word 'prog'.
That's like saying 'Jazz' should not be called jazz....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Un Amico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2021 at 20:17
I mean it's not what they called themselves at the time, whereas jazz musicians were always jazz, Blues was always Blues, Reggae was Reggae since it began, Folk was Folk etc. What we now call Prog did not exist as a definition in the early Seventies. The Seventies were the only decade that really mattered by the way. Prog musicians of today are mere replicants.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2021 at 21:13
Originally posted by Un Amico Un Amico wrote:

I mean it's not what they called themselves at the time, whereas jazz musicians were always jazz, Blues was always Blues, Reggae was Reggae since it began, Folk was Folk etc. What we now call Prog did not exist as a definition in the early Seventies. The Seventies were the only decade that really mattered by the way. Prog musicians of today are mere replicants.

You are incorrect. The word "jazz" was not associated with the musical form until about 1915 in Chicago (where previously "jazz" was referred to as "blues"). The word migrated south to New Orleans and was first in print in 1916. Previously the musical form was known as "ragtime" in the Big Easy. So, in that sense "prog" was know as "rock" in the 1970s, and the word prog was used later to delineate a specific genre. 

And even "blues" music wasn't blue at the point of origin, and the term did not come into vogue until the turn of the 20th century; however the word itself has described melancholy for centuries. In the 14th century Chaucer wrote:

Lo, yond the sunne, the candel of jelosye!
Wyth teres blewe and with a wounded herte
Taketh your leve.

(Behold the sun yonder, the candle of jealousy! With blue tears and with wounded heart, take your leave.)

Naming conventions for musical genres did not always spring fully formed at their inception. It's a silly idea, actually. No one called classical music "classical" back when Bach or Vivaldi were composing, or even Mozart, for that matter. The term didn't appear in the Oxford English Dictionary until 1829, and was used primarily as a means to categorize the period between Bach and Beethoven as a golden age of music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2021 at 23:57
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

If Rush weren't prog then neither were Kansas, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, The Moody Blues, etc. The list could just keep going. Not all of their material was prog but the same could be said about a lot of bands considered prog.

...Then it shouldn't surprise you that some (certainly not me) indeed don't consider any of what you listed as prog, lol.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaleHauskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 02:49
I love the quote from Neil Peart who when asked what was it like to be the greatest drummer replied..."I don't know, you better ask Jon Hiseman!" “Jon was the biggest influence on my own personal drum development making me look beyond rock to jazz playing”
https://chriswelchonline.com/a-tribute-to-jon-hiseman/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 03:05
Humility is such an old fashioned thing...sadly. I miss folks like that...gifted musicians with both feet planted in the ground.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 07:18
Rush prog rock? Yes.

Glad that's cleared up.

Hidden bonus. Pink Floyd prog?

Yes.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 08:34
Originally posted by Deidre Deidre wrote:

Originally posted by Un Amico Un Amico wrote:

I mean it's not what they called themselves at the time, whereas jazz musicians were always jazz, Blues was always Blues, Reggae was Reggae since it began, Folk was Folk etc. What we now call Prog did not exist as a definition in the early Seventies. The Seventies were the only decade that really mattered by the way. Prog musicians of today are mere replicants.

I'm afraid that what we call Prog(ressive rock) did exist as early as 1970. For instance, here's a local newspaper announcing of the first closure of the Friars club in South East England, where it's described as a "progressive rock club" and "one of the best progressive clubs in the country.

Sorry, but you’re wrong. As per my earlier reply within this thread, “Progressive“ didn’t have the meaning then that we have instilled in it now, as is evidenced by the cuttings in the booklets for the Krimson 30th anniversary series, where several “progressive charts” are included. For example this one, dated 18 Dec 1971, listing “the week’s best-selling 15 progressive albums”. The artists?

1. Led Zeppelin
2. ELP
3. King Crimson
4. Yes
5. John Lennon

6. Rod Stewart
7. Isaac Hayes
8. Pink Floyd (someone refuting your suggestion that they weren’t considered prog)
9. Wings
10. The Who

11. Cat Steven’s
12. Commander Cody and his Lost Planet Airmen (who? Sounds prog, though! 😜)
13. Santana
14. “New Riders of the Purple Sage” - Various Artists
15= The Doors
15= Traffic

Now there’s plenty there that is in PA as either prog or prog-related, but clearly progressive in the ‘70s meant something different than we think of it now.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 08:43
Wrong Nick, we did not go around as kids and say "we dunno what we are".  We went to progressive rock concerts and if someone asked what we liked we said "I like progressive rock".  It's the latter generations that are trying to place bands into buckets and tie pretty little pink bows around the term.
We knew what we were and what music we listened to and what concerts we went to.  it's kind of insulting to be redefined by people 50 years later.


Edited by Spaciousmind - May 09 2021 at 08:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 09:16
Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Wrong Nick, we did not go around as kids and say "we dunno what we are".  We went to progressive rock concerts and if someone asked what we liked we said "I like progressive rock".  It's the latter generations that are trying to place bands into buckets and tie pretty little pink bows around the term.
We knew what we were and what music we listened to and what concerts we went to.  it's kind of insulting to be redefined by people 50 years later.

None of that is what I said! 😄

I am not trying to put anything into boxes at all. All I said was that what the progressive box meant then is not what the progressive box means now, because latter generations are making the pretty little pink bows. If anything, everything you’ve said matches what I believe and think.

So, you’re not actually disagreeing with anything I’ve said. 🤷🏻‍♂️

(Although, I guess it could be another Nick you are replying to?)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 09:19
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

Rush prog rock? Yes.

Glad that's cleared up.


Thank you! After 15 pages I got a bit worried. Now I will be able to sleep tight again... Wink



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 09:23
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Wrong Nick, we did not go around as kids and say "we dunno what we are".  We went to progressive rock concerts and if someone asked what we liked we said "I like progressive rock".  It's the latter generations that are trying to place bands into buckets and tie pretty little pink bows around the term.
We knew what we were and what music we listened to and what concerts we went to.  it's kind of insulting to be redefined by people 50 years later.

None of that is what I said! 😄

I am not trying to put anything into boxes at all. All I said was that what the progressive box meant then is not what the progressive box means now, because latter generations are making the pretty little pink bows. If anything, everything you’ve said matches what I believe and think.

So, you’re not actually disagreeing with anything I’ve said. 🤷🏻‍♂️

(Although, I guess it could be another Nick you are replying to?)



Good I am glad we agree!  It's the papers back that that confused things often.  If something did not fit into a pop chart they listed it as progressive.  But it probably did good for sales either way.  I actually bought Commander Cody because it was listed to find out after I listened to it that it was Southern Rock a band from Texas i believe.  Not really progressive at all but I still kinda liked the album back then for getting a taste of what people in Texas liked to hear.  I guess from someone in the UK that might have been seen progressive by the paper that listed the chart as it was unlikely that something similar was sold at that time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 09:26
Originally posted by Deidre Deidre wrote:

Are Rush actually Prog? Well, at the time when Rush were a current band, they were considered as a hard-rock band and there's no doubt about that. However, they were among, let's say, "intellectual" hard-rock bands whose heavy music has been regarded beyond that "just for fun" heavy stuff like, for example, Slade were back then. Rush were among hard-rock bands like Blue Öyster Cult, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep and Rainbow. Now their fans tag some of Rush's best songs as "Heavy Prog" and I have no problem with that at all.
A cover of a hard-rock magazine from 1986.

You do realise that the two are not mutually exclusive, right? It is possible to be hard rock AND prog, just as it is possible to be folk AND prog, or metal AND prog, etc. etc. etc.

The thing is with language is that it changes and evolves, and labels and definitions do also. And over time, this always causes arguments. Real life doesn’t live forever in neat little boxes. We can delve deep int semiotics and talk about signifier and signified as much as you like, but it doesn’t change what is, only how we describe it.

The most frustrating thing I find with genres and labels, when it comes to music, is that it is often those who have come to the music later, who try to impose their understanding of the definition on an earlier time. That’s not to say that either understanding is right or wrong, so much as appropriate or inappropriate for a particular history. Anyone attempting to match the modern understanding of prog which the original scope of what was called progressive, will find a certain amount of disconnect, even though the two are similar concepts and have overlapping “definitions”.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 12:03
It's like taking a head of cabbage, separating all the leaves, laying them neatly on a table until it is completely covered, and then blowing them off with a high-powered fan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 12:14
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

It's like taking a head of cabbage, separating all the leaves, laying them neatly on a table until it is completely covered, and then blowing them off with a high-powered fan.

You are in prime form today! Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2021 at 12:27
Originally posted by Deidre Deidre wrote:

Originally posted by Un Amico Un Amico wrote:

I mean it's not what they called themselves at the time, whereas jazz musicians were always jazz, Blues was always Blues, Reggae was Reggae since it began, Folk was Folk etc. What we now call Prog did not exist as a definition in the early Seventies. The Seventies were the only decade that really mattered by the way. Prog musicians of today are mere replicants.

I'm afraid that what we call Prog(ressive rock) did exist as early as 1970. For instance, here's a local newspaper announcing of the first closure of the Friars club in South East England, where it's described as a "progressive rock club" and
"one of the best progressive clubs in the country":


I wish members would stop posting these inane proof of progressive rock media posts or news articles from the 70s that never mentioned the artists that it was supposed to represent. This has been going on since the PA forum was founded and is as dumb now as it was then.

Edited by SteveG - May 09 2021 at 12:31
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