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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 03:48
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

As India has been mentioned, let's think at what happens between India and Pakistan, formerly a singke nation as designed by the British: they both have atomic bombs and probably they are ready to use them, too. The reason of their clashes seems to stay (correct me from wrong) in ethnics and most of all in religion.

So, has nationalism become a bad word?

No. It has always been bad.

And religion is worse.

I see that you are insistent but so too shall I insist that you cannot ignore the compassionate nationalism of Gandhi and only focus on the toxic religious-nationalism of Mr Jinnah.  Without the former, India would have never freed itself and without the latter, India could have remained one undivided nation.  But it only came into being as a nation, free from the clutches of the British Empire, because of nationalism.  Yes, I do see that formulations in the shade of grey are as problematic for the likes of you as they are for the flag waving angry redhead variety of nationalist but that is not going to make said shades of grey go away. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 04:28
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:


As India has been mentioned, let's think at what happens between India and Pakistan, formerly a singke nation as designed by the British: they both have atomic bombs and probably they are ready to use them, too. The reason of their clashes seems to stay (correct me from wrong) in ethnics and most of all in religion.

So, has nationalism become a bad word?

No. It has always been bad.

And religion is worse.


I see that you are insistent but so too shall I insist that you cannot ignore the compassionate nationalism of Gandhi and only focus on the toxic religious-nationalism of Mr Jinnah.  Without the former, India would have never freed itself and without the latter, India could have remained one undivided nation.  But it only came into being as a nation, free from the clutches of the British Empire, because of nationalism.  Yes, I do see that formulations in the shade of grey are as problematic for the likes of you as they are for the flag waving angry redhead variety of nationalist but that is not going to make said shades of grey go away. 
Well said.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 04:29
Could Brexit have happened without nationalism?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 04:40
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Could Brexit have happened without nationalism?

Likely not, as sovereignty was a strong argument made by the 'Leavers'.  But then, is Brexit really going to be a good thing for the UK?  Jury is still out on that but it's already restarted the troubles on the Irish border.  This is another problem with nationalism.  Whose nation are we talking about?  The way the strident English nationalists voting all the way for Leave failed to think about Northern Ireland reminds me of how we in India keep clinging onto Kashmir while also unleashing devastation on them in the name of counter-terrorism.  The North East fares only somewhat better.  The problem seems to be that one large majority bloc see themselves as the nation and forget about other groups (whether they differ on the basis of race, language or ethnicity). Even from a nationalist point of view, that's a cardinal sin and it's one that nationalists repeatedly commit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 04:44
"nationalism" has always been a bad word in my book


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 05:18
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Could Brexit have happened without nationalism?

Likely not, as sovereignty was a strong argument made by the 'Leavers'.  But then, is Brexit really going to be a good thing for the UK?  Jury is still out on that but it's already restarted the troubles on the Irish border.  This is another problem with nationalism.  Whose nation are we talking about?  The way the strident English nationalists voting all the way for Leave failed to think about Northern Ireland reminds me of how we in India keep clinging onto Kashmir while also unleashing devastation on them in the name of counter-terrorism.  The North East fares only somewhat better.  The problem seems to be that one large majority bloc see themselves as the nation and forget about other groups (whether they differ on the basis of race, language or ethnicity). Even from a nationalist point of view, that's a cardinal sin and it's one that nationalists repeatedly commit.

I think this is a very acute observation.

The whole Brexit debate was a mess, really. The driving force behind much of the Leave argument intellectually was the issue, as you say, of sovereignty. However, it was far more complex than that. The vast bulk of the “ordinary people” who voted leave were also driven by a very real sense of their “identity” being taken from them, and this, in turn, was driven by the relentless focus by populists on nationhood, immigration, and so on, this very much aided and abetted by perhaps the grubbiest tabloid press in the western world. Many others also thought that they would register a protest vote against a particularly harsh austerity driven government, “safe” in the knowledge that the remain argument would garner more votes, and this rather came back to bite them on the backside.

Northern Ireland was a completely foreseeable issue, and one that, remarkably, was unforeseen by the great and the good. However, when one sees gangs of youths chucking petrol bombs and the like against each other and the police, the overwhelming majority have not a clue about the complex issues of border controls, free trade, single market, and the like. They are manipulated by their “leaders” on one issue, and one issue alone, that of their “British” and “nationalist” identity in turn. In other words, as with so many similar issues throughout history, a basic human trait, that of wishing to have an identity, usually with similar looking or similar thinking people, is turned into something altogether more toxic, with the usual “group think” chucked into the mix.

I see that one of the Bald ladies has said that nationalism is always an ugly word for her. No, it is not. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a pride in one’s identity or nation. Where it becomes ugly is where this is manipulated by powerful people into something far more sinister, and you will know better than most that this is precisely the issue which confronted India in the partition era.

I fear for us all in this era of simplicity of politics and identity. We seem to be incapable of having rational debate and feelings for others on the opposite side of any debate. Perhaps this was always so, but it is most clearly exaggerated, and manipulated by not very nice people, in the modern era of global 24 hour news and social media commentary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 05:34
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Could Brexit have happened without nationalism?

Likely not, as sovereignty was a strong argument made by the 'Leavers'.  But then, is Brexit really going to be a good thing for the UK?  Jury is still out on that but it's already restarted the troubles on the Irish border.  This is another problem with nationalism.  Whose nation are we talking about?  The way the strident English nationalists voting all the way for Leave failed to think about Northern Ireland reminds me of how we in India keep clinging onto Kashmir while also unleashing devastation on them in the name of counter-terrorism.  The North East fares only somewhat better.  The problem seems to be that one large majority bloc see themselves as the nation and forget about other groups (whether they differ on the basis of race, language or ethnicity). Even from a nationalist point of view, that's a cardinal sin and it's one that nationalists repeatedly commit.
I see that one of the Bald ladies has said that nationalism is always an ugly word for her. No, it is not. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a pride in one’s identity or nation. Where it becomes ugly is where this is manipulated by powerful people into something far more sinister, and you will know better than most that this is precisely the issue which confronted India in the partition era.

yes it is. let me quote Schopenhauer on the issue and you will understand:

“The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 05:55
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Could Brexit have happened without nationalism?


Likely not, as sovereignty was a strong argument made by the 'Leavers'.  But then, is Brexit really going to be a good thing for the UK?  Jury is still out on that but it's already restarted the troubles on the Irish border.  This is another problem with nationalism.  Whose nation are we talking about?  The way the strident English nationalists voting all the way for Leave failed to think about Northern Ireland reminds me of how we in India keep clinging onto Kashmir while also unleashing devastation on them in the name of counter-terrorism.  The North East fares only somewhat better.  The problem seems to be that one large majority bloc see themselves as the nation and forget about other groups (whether they differ on the basis of race, language or ethnicity). Even from a nationalist point of view, that's a cardinal sin and it's one that nationalists repeatedly commit.


I think this is a very acute observation.

The whole Brexit debate was a mess, really. The driving force behind much of the Leave argument intellectually was the issue, as you say, of sovereignty. However, it was far more complex than that. The vast bulk of the “ordinary people” who voted leave were also driven by a very real sense of their “identity” being taken from them, and this, in turn, was driven by the relentless focus by populists on nationhood, immigration, and so on, this very much aided and abetted by perhaps the grubbiest tabloid press in the western world. Many others also thought that they would register a protest vote against a particularly harsh austerity driven government, “safe” in the knowledge that the remain argument would garner more votes, and this rather came back to bite them on the backside.

Northern Ireland was a completely foreseeable issue, and one that, remarkably, was unforeseen by the great and the good. However, when one sees gangs of youths chucking petrol bombs and the like against each other and the police, the overwhelming majority have not a clue about the complex issues of border controls, free trade, single market, and the like. They are manipulated by their “leaders” on one issue, and one issue alone, that of their “British” and “nationalist” identity in turn. In other words, as with so many similar issues throughout history, a basic human trait, that of wishing to have an identity, usually with similar looking or similar thinking people, is turned into something altogether more toxic, with the usual “group think” chucked into the mix.

I see that one of the Bald ladies has said that nationalism is always an ugly word for her. No, it is not. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a pride in one’s identity or nation. Where it becomes ugly is where this is manipulated by powerful people into something far more sinister, and you will know better than most that this is precisely the issue which confronted India in the partition era.

I fear for us all in this era of simplicity of politics and identity. We seem to be incapable of having rational debate and feelings for others on the opposite side of any debate. Perhaps this was always so, but it is most clearly exaggerated, and manipulated by not very nice people, in the modern era of global 24 hour news and social media commentary.
Once again Laz, you are able to articulate my thoughts in a way that I'm not capable of doing. Along with Madan, I really appreciate your input into these discussions, even in areas where we diverge in opinion. Cheers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 05:55
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Could Brexit have happened without nationalism?

Likely not, as sovereignty was a strong argument made by the 'Leavers'.  But then, is Brexit really going to be a good thing for the UK?  Jury is still out on that but it's already restarted the troubles on the Irish border.  This is another problem with nationalism.  Whose nation are we talking about?  The way the strident English nationalists voting all the way for Leave failed to think about Northern Ireland reminds me of how we in India keep clinging onto Kashmir while also unleashing devastation on them in the name of counter-terrorism.  The North East fares only somewhat better.  The problem seems to be that one large majority bloc see themselves as the nation and forget about other groups (whether they differ on the basis of race, language or ethnicity). Even from a nationalist point of view, that's a cardinal sin and it's one that nationalists repeatedly commit.
I see that one of the Bald ladies has said that nationalism is always an ugly word for her. No, it is not. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a pride in one’s identity or nation. Where it becomes ugly is where this is manipulated by powerful people into something far more sinister, and you will know better than most that this is precisely the issue which confronted India in the partition era.

yes it is. let me quote Schopenhauer on the issue and you will understand:

“The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short, since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.”


I have said it before, and will repeat it here. I find liberals, and you would I suppose proudly describe yourself as such, the most illiberal of people, with an especial distaste of anybody seen as being morally and intellectually inferior to them.

Schopenhauer was a very strong influence on the likes of Nietzsche and Wagner. We all know how well that train of thought ended, with history’s greatest megalomaniac quoting all as a direct influence on his political and life philosophy. Not much of an advert is it?

There is no such thing as a people or country without its faults or follies, because there is no human being yet born without these essential human traits. Just because a very wordy, beardy pointy head says words such as those you quote, it doesn’t make them the fount of all wisdom. Indeed, I find most such pearls of wisdom to be amongst the stupidest of human discourse.

Every intelligent person is capable of seeing the faults and follies of his or her leaders or nations. That does not make such a person automatically unintelligent for still wishing to defend his or her nation against what he or she perceives as a threat against his or her values, be that threat economic, political, cultural, or all else. Of course, the best way to deal with such threats is by discourse, polite discourse if possible.

I am extremely proud to have been raised a working class man. To this day, my father has never owned a property. I suppose that I would now be best described as a middle class professional with a very good job, varied interests, nice home, and etc. I have, though, never forgotten where I came from, and my closest friends are of a similar background. Thankfully, none of us have a tendency to live our lives according to the views of narrow minded and morally dubious bearded philosophers and such rabble. We rather enjoy cheering on England or Wales (for those who are Welsh) in the rugby, football, and etc., making extremely dubious jokes about the other lot we are playing, all washed down with copious levels of beer, and rooting ourselves in what is laughingly called the real world by media commentators.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 06:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Could Brexit have happened without nationalism?


Likely not, as sovereignty was a strong argument made by the 'Leavers'.  But then, is Brexit really going to be a good thing for the UK?  Jury is still out on that but it's already restarted the troubles on the Irish border.  This is another problem with nationalism.  Whose nation are we talking about?  The way the strident English nationalists voting all the way for Leave failed to think about Northern Ireland reminds me of how we in India keep clinging onto Kashmir while also unleashing devastation on them in the name of counter-terrorism.  The North East fares only somewhat better.  The problem seems to be that one large majority bloc see themselves as the nation and forget about other groups (whether they differ on the basis of race, language or ethnicity). Even from a nationalist point of view, that's a cardinal sin and it's one that nationalists repeatedly commit.


I think this is a very acute observation.

The whole Brexit debate was a mess, really. The driving force behind much of the Leave argument intellectually was the issue, as you say, of sovereignty. However, it was far more complex than that. The vast bulk of the “ordinary people” who voted leave were also driven by a very real sense of their “identity” being taken from them, and this, in turn, was driven by the relentless focus by populists on nationhood, immigration, and so on, this very much aided and abetted by perhaps the grubbiest tabloid press in the western world. Many others also thought that they would register a protest vote against a particularly harsh austerity driven government, “safe” in the knowledge that the remain argument would garner more votes, and this rather came back to bite them on the backside.

Northern Ireland was a completely foreseeable issue, and one that, remarkably, was unforeseen by the great and the good. However, when one sees gangs of youths chucking petrol bombs and the like against each other and the police, the overwhelming majority have not a clue about the complex issues of border controls, free trade, single market, and the like. They are manipulated by their “leaders” on one issue, and one issue alone, that of their “British” and “nationalist” identity in turn. In other words, as with so many similar issues throughout history, a basic human trait, that of wishing to have an identity, usually with similar looking or similar thinking people, is turned into something altogether more toxic, with the usual “group think” chucked into the mix.

I see that one of the Bald ladies has said that nationalism is always an ugly word for her. No, it is not. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a pride in one’s identity or nation. Where it becomes ugly is where this is manipulated by powerful people into something far more sinister, and you will know better than most that this is precisely the issue which confronted India in the partition era.

I fear for us all in this era of simplicity of politics and identity. We seem to be incapable of having rational debate and feelings for others on the opposite side of any debate. Perhaps this was always so, but it is most clearly exaggerated, and manipulated by not very nice people, in the modern era of global 24 hour news and social media commentary.
Once again Laz, you are able to articulate my thoughts in a way that I'm not capable of doing. Along with Madan, I really appreciate your input into these discussions, even in areas where we diverge in opinion. Cheers.

Thank you, old chap. These debates are always fun and interesting.

I am off outside now to cut the lawn and pull out some weeds before I have the backlash of a German/American liberal argument. Please do feel free to take over! LOL 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 06:03
I think the key thing to understand is exactly what Laz has emphasized, in that no political system or ideology can be perfect when administered by imperfect people. Of which we all are at times.

Edited by SteveG - April 17 2021 at 06:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 06:38
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:


As India has been mentioned, let's think at what happens between India and Pakistan, formerly a singke nation as designed by the British: they both have atomic bombs and probably they are ready to use them, too. The reason of their clashes seems to stay (correct me from wrong) in ethnics and most of all in religion.

So, has nationalism become a bad word?

No. It has always been bad.

And religion is worse.


I see that you are insistent but so too shall I insist that you cannot ignore the compassionate nationalism of Gandhi and only focus on the toxic religious-nationalism of Mr Jinnah.  Without the former, India would have never freed itself and without the latter, India could have remained one undivided nation.  But it only came into being as a nation, free from the clutches of the British Empire, because of nationalism.  Yes, I do see that formulations in the shade of grey are as problematic for the likes of you as they are for the flag waving angry redhead variety of nationalist but that is not going to make said shades of grey go away. 
Well said.   

The Mahatma nationalist? One who fought with his ideas and non-violence against the imperialism of the actual most nationalist colonizers?
If I'm not wrong, despite being Indian he didn't want to separate Hindi from Muslims. He never pretended to separate Pakistan or Bangla Desh from India. Am I wrong? Or you think that he was working for the submission of the Muslims? I was obviously not there, but I don't think that he intended Pakistan as an Indian colony.
The anti-colonialist rebellions, as well as in the already mentioned Vietnam or in Algeria should be called "struggle for the self-determination of an oppressed people. Oppressed by ethnicity, usually.

Are Palestinians nationalists? Northern Irish, Basques? Maybe yes, but nationalism is not the root cause of their fights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 07:09
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Could Brexit have happened without nationalism?


Likely not, as sovereignty was a strong argument made by the 'Leavers'.  But then, is Brexit really going to be a good thing for the UK?  Jury is still out on that but it's already restarted the troubles on the Irish border.  This is another problem with nationalism.  Whose nation are we talking about?  The way the strident English nationalists voting all the way for Leave failed to think about Northern Ireland reminds me of how we in India keep clinging onto Kashmir while also unleashing devastation on them in the name of counter-terrorism.  The North East fares only somewhat better.  The problem seems to be that one large majority bloc see themselves as the nation and forget about other groups (whether they differ on the basis of race, language or ethnicity). Even from a nationalist point of view, that's a cardinal sin and it's one that nationalists repeatedly commit.


I think this is a very acute observation.

The whole Brexit debate was a mess, really. The driving force behind much of the Leave argument intellectually was the issue, as you say, of sovereignty. However, it was far more complex than that. The vast bulk of the “ordinary people” who voted leave were also driven by a very real sense of their “identity” being taken from them, and this, in turn, was driven by the relentless focus by populists on nationhood, immigration, and so on, this very much aided and abetted by perhaps the grubbiest tabloid press in the western world. Many others also thought that they would register a protest vote against a particularly harsh austerity driven government, “safe” in the knowledge that the remain argument would garner more votes, and this rather came back to bite them on the backside.

Northern Ireland was a completely foreseeable issue, and one that, remarkably, was unforeseen by the great and the good. However, when one sees gangs of youths chucking petrol bombs and the like against each other and the police, the overwhelming majority have not a clue about the complex issues of border controls, free trade, single market, and the like. They are manipulated by their “leaders” on one issue, and one issue alone, that of their “British” and “nationalist” identity in turn. In other words, as with so many similar issues throughout history, a basic human trait, that of wishing to have an identity, usually with similar looking or similar thinking people, is turned into something altogether more toxic, with the usual “group think” chucked into the mix.

I see that one of the Bald ladies has said that nationalism is always an ugly word for her. No, it is not. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a pride in one’s identity or nation. Where it becomes ugly is where this is manipulated by powerful people into something far more sinister, and you will know better than most that this is precisely the issue which confronted India in the partition era.

I fear for us all in this era of simplicity of politics and identity. We seem to be incapable of having rational debate and feelings for others on the opposite side of any debate. Perhaps this was always so, but it is most clearly exaggerated, and manipulated by not very nice people, in the modern era of global 24 hour news and social media commentary.
Once again Laz, you are able to articulate my thoughts in a way that I'm not capable of doing. Along with Madan, I really appreciate your input into these discussions, even in areas where we diverge in opinion. Cheers.

Thank you, old chap. These debates are always fun and interesting.

I am off outside now to cut the lawn and pull out some weeds before I have the backlash of a German/American liberal argument. Please do feel free to take over! LOL 

I find it interesting how you come to conclusions about me. first of all: I don't consider myself to be a liberal. I share some of the ideas of liberalism, others I am critical about; I won't go into the details. all I can say about an assumption like this is that it is daring. I am being polite here; I could use a stronger word.

name me one sensible reason someone should be proud of the country he/she was born in or lives in. you can in my opinion only be proud of achievements of your own, for example that you master a certain instrument or speak a foreign language. but being from a certain country can hardly be called an achievement.

making a connection between Schopenhauer and Hitler is even more daring. in case you don't know: Schopenhauer was a big influence on Einstein (Einstein had a portrait of Schopenhauer in his study), and Einstein was most definitely opposed to Hitler. Schopenhauer was not an influence on Hitler in any way.

by the way: I never voted for the FDP, the liberal party in Germany, and it is extremely unlikely I ever will


Edited by BaldJean - April 17 2021 at 07:36


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 07:32
^You be as impolite as you wish, Jean. Wouldn’t bother me in the slightest bit. In fact, it would be nice if you shared with us some of your thoughts, rather than quoting endlessly long dead and rather irrelevant philosophers.

One sensible reason? I will give you two. First, I am inordinately proud of the fact that we stood up to and defeated Nazi Germany. Incredible, and we are free owing to it.

Second, we resisted the onset, alongside other nations, of totalitarian Soviet communism.

Both of those creeds were intrinsically damaging to human thought and human rights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 07:41
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

^You be as impolite as you wish, Jean. Wouldn’t bother me in the slightest bit. In fact, it would be nice if you shared with us some of your thoughts, rather than quoting endlessly long dead and rather irrelevant philosophers.

One sensible reason? I will give you two. First, I am inordinately proud of the fact that we stood up to and defeated Nazi Germany. Incredible, and we are free owing to it.

Second, we resisted the onset, alongside other nations, of totalitarian Soviet communism.

Both of those creeds were intrinsically damaging to human thought and human rights.

it is nice to know you were actively involved in these two things you mention


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 07:57
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

 
The Mahatma nationalist? One who fought with his ideas and non-violence against the imperialism of the actual most nationalist colonizers?
If I'm not wrong, despite being Indian he didn't want to separate Hindi from Muslims. He never pretended to separate Pakistan or Bangla Desh from India. Am I wrong? Or you think that he was working for the submission of the Muslims? I was obviously not there, but I don't think that he intended Pakistan as an Indian colony.
The anti-colonialist rebellions, as well as in the already mentioned Vietnam or in Algeria should be called "struggle for the self-determination of an oppressed people. Oppressed by ethnicity, usually.

Are Palestinians nationalists? Northern Irish, Basques? Maybe yes, but nationalism is not the root cause of their fights.

Yes, yes, yes, Mahatma was a nationalist.  People who evoke nationalism to fight oppression are also nationalists.  You cannot redefine nationalism so that it includes only 'bad nationalist' and excludes 'good nationalist'.  It doesn't work that way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 08:36
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Yes, yes, yes, Mahatma was a nationalist.  People who evoke nationalism to fight oppression are also nationalists.  You cannot redefine nationalism so that it includes only 'bad nationalist' and excludes 'good nationalist'.  It doesn't work that way. 

But isn't that the consequence of nationalism that regardless of where it comes from good (defensive) intentions or bad (aggressive) intentions, the consequence always inevitably results in death (of someone, somewhere) and racial alignment of borders or subjugation.  At the of the day it's really hard to distinguish between nationalism and racism, regardless of the initial intent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 08:42
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

^You be as impolite as you wish, Jean. Wouldn’t bother me in the slightest bit. In fact, it would be nice if you shared with us some of your thoughts, rather than quoting endlessly long dead and rather irrelevant philosophers.

One sensible reason? I will give you two. First, I am inordinately proud of the fact that we stood up to and defeated Nazi Germany. Incredible, and we are free owing to it.

Second, we resisted the onset, alongside other nations, of totalitarian Soviet communism.

Both of those creeds were intrinsically damaging to human thought and human rights.

it is nice to know you were actively involved in these two things you mention

Well actually, in a teeny tiny way, I was involved in the second. I was a member of the armed forces. My family were actively involved in the first.

I see that you edited your original post from which my reply came, and I don’t remember you saying I had to be actively involved the first time around, although I may, of course be guilty of not reading your post carefully enough. Blame it on the gardening.

You never voted for the Liberal Party in elections, eh? You should know by now that I NEVER refer to liberals as a political party, but metropolitan liberals as a distinct social and political group who think alike. In fact, one of the main reasons why the Liberals in this country (Liberal Democrat Party) have become effectively defunct as a political force is that they really are irrelevant since the metropolitan liberals within both Labour and Conservative have stolen their raison d’etre. The major political debate of our times is not left v right, but so called progressive v conservative traditionalist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 08:53
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

...
But it only came into being as a nation, free from the clutches of the British Empire, because of nationalism.  Yes, I do see that formulations in the shade of grey are as problematic for the likes of you as they are for the flag waving angry redhead variety of nationalist but that is not going to make said shades of grey go away. 

Hi,

I always thought that the British Empire incited the opposing religions to make sure India did not succeed in its independence and efforts to unite. The English did not exactly help Ghandi and their alliances and friends.

Only later did they relent, but by then the whole thing of an independent India was more of an important detail in Hindu lives, however, I'm not sure that the two main religious sides ever really worked together to make a greater and better nation ... but their history is so confusing at times, as to make the word "nationalism" more of a joke ... same in the rest of the middle east ... how do you get all the warlords together? ... so they can fight each other again? And all of them think their version of this and that is better and more authentic than the other!

"Nationalism" makes sense sometimes, but at others it is a gross divider of all the folks involved ... and you just saw that in the recent American election ... something that ought to show you that "nationalism" is not an IDEAL that can be properly trusted and is grossly misused by many folks to make believe that there is another alternative somewhere in an Utopia ... and in reality, it is just words being thrown around, and in many cases meaningless ... but then ... what the heck, folks do the same thing for the good book!

We're in an over populated world ... "nationalism" doesn't exist and can not survive, as it will separate and create yet another country whose only defense is that they are all a part of this religion or that something or other!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2021 at 09:33
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Could Brexit have happened without nationalism?


Likely not, as sovereignty was a strong argument made by the 'Leavers'.  But then, is Brexit really going to be a good thing for the UK?  Jury is still out on that but it's already restarted the troubles on the Irish border.  This is another problem with nationalism.  Whose nation are we talking about?  The way the strident English nationalists voting all the way for Leave failed to think about Northern Ireland reminds me of how we in India keep clinging onto Kashmir while also unleashing devastation on them in the name of counter-terrorism.  The North East fares only somewhat better.  The problem seems to be that one large majority bloc see themselves as the nation and forget about other groups (whether they differ on the basis of race, language or ethnicity). Even from a nationalist point of view, that's a cardinal sin and it's one that nationalists repeatedly commit.


I think this is a very acute observation.

The whole Brexit debate was a mess, really. The driving force behind much of the Leave argument intellectually was the issue, as you say, of sovereignty. However, it was far more complex than that. The vast bulk of the “ordinary people” who voted leave were also driven by a very real sense of their “identity” being taken from them, and this, in turn, was driven by the relentless focus by populists on nationhood, immigration, and so on, this very much aided and abetted by perhaps the grubbiest tabloid press in the western world. Many others also thought that they would register a protest vote against a particularly harsh austerity driven government, “safe” in the knowledge that the remain argument would garner more votes, and this rather came back to bite them on the backside.

Northern Ireland was a completely foreseeable issue, and one that, remarkably, was unforeseen by the great and the good. However, when one sees gangs of youths chucking petrol bombs and the like against each other and the police, the overwhelming majority have not a clue about the complex issues of border controls, free trade, single market, and the like. They are manipulated by their “leaders” on one issue, and one issue alone, that of their “British” and “nationalist” identity in turn. In other words, as with so many similar issues throughout history, a basic human trait, that of wishing to have an identity, usually with similar looking or similar thinking people, is turned into something altogether more toxic, with the usual “group think” chucked into the mix.

I see that one of the Bald ladies has said that nationalism is always an ugly word for her. No, it is not. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a pride in one’s identity or nation. Where it becomes ugly is where this is manipulated by powerful people into something far more sinister, and you will know better than most that this is precisely the issue which confronted India in the partition era.

I fear for us all in this era of simplicity of politics and identity. We seem to be incapable of having rational debate and feelings for others on the opposite side of any debate. Perhaps this was always so, but it is most clearly exaggerated, and manipulated by not very nice people, in the modern era of global 24 hour news and social media commentary.
Once again Laz, you are able to articulate my thoughts in a way that I'm not capable of doing. Along with Madan, I really appreciate your input into these discussions, even in areas where we diverge in opinion. Cheers.


Thank you, old chap. These debates are always fun and interesting.

I am off outside now to cut the lawn and pull out some weeds before I have the backlash of a German/American liberal argument. Please do feel free to take over! LOL 

I find it interesting how you come to conclusions about me. first of all: I don't consider myself to be a liberal. I share some of the ideas of liberalism, others I am critical about; I won't go into the details. all I can say about an assumption like this is that it is daring. I am being polite here; I could use a stronger word.

name me one sensible reason someone should be proud of the country he/she was born in or lives in. you can in my opinion only be proud of achievements of your own, for example that you master a certain instrument or speak a foreign language. but being from a certain country can hardly be called an achievement.

making a connection between Schopenhauer and Hitler is even more daring. in case you don't know: Schopenhauer was a big influence on Einstein (Einstein had a portrait of Schopenhauer in his study), and Einstein was most definitely opposed to Hitler. Schopenhauer was not an influence on Hitler in any way.

by the way: I never voted for the FDP, the liberal party in Germany, and it is extremely unlikely I ever will



The amazing thing about old dead philosophers is that they may have changed thier tunes had they lived in the current post war era. They do have the right to alter thier opinions had they lived this long. And I believe that some would, so to put every word ever spoken by them as some unchangable law written down in stone is not practical. They were of thier time. Do you really think that Marx and Lennon would still be extolling the virtues of socialism had both lived to the year 2021?

Edited by SteveG - April 17 2021 at 11:13
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