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Has Nationalism become a bad word?
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Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

”Imagine no religion” etc. is a sentiment that most of the world’s people would never accept. Not just the fat American Evangelicals we all love to hate, but also the uncontacted tribes of the Amazon and those other completely marginal nations of the world. It’s an elitist notion. I really dislike this song.

Well, I really dislike religions and conservatorism.
Some people says that all the traditions must be preserved as they define the idenbtity of a people, a race or whatever they want to identify.

But let's not forget that cannibalism was a tradition somewhere and sometimes, as well as human sacrifices.
Do we really need to preserve all the traditions and the identities?

Lennon's view was utopistic, but the idea of "no gods, no nations" was already around at the end of 18th century. 
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Off topic: as you are from Rhode Island, do you know whether Lovecraft's house is still visible in Providence?

(and a great album linked here)
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Last: if you dislike Lennon's version, try this
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

But let's not forget that cannibalism was a tradition somewhere and sometimes, as well as human sacrifices.
Do we really need to preserve all the traditions and the identities?

Find me one actual cannibal who argues that his tradition of cannibalism needs to be preserved. Otherwise I’ll categorise yours as a strawman attack against the idea of preserving legitimate traditions.

Is illiteracy a tradition that needs to be upheld against the scourge of reading? Or hunger a tradition that needs to be upheld against the scourge of food?

YOU dislike religions and conservatism. Typical liberal intolerance masked as enlightened progress.
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:


Off topic: as you are from Rhode Island, do you know whether Lovecraft's house is still visible in Providence?

It’s not, though his grave is.

And I like some of Lennon’s other material. “Imagine” is a bad, misguided song, no matter who sings it.


Edited by Crane - April 14 2021 at 09:18
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ The Vietnam protest was diverse ranging from those who saw clearly the evil and futility of the war, to selfish bums only looking out for their own ass. I certainly wouldn't glorify hippies. When I was a kid they were the biggest jerks in the world and pretty much a bunch of idiot bullies.

What I was referring to was the fact that many saw through the old nationalistic rallying cries that got many to enlist in WWII, instead they stood up to a war that was far different from WWII. They knowingly challenged the rhetoric of serving without question. They questioned the nationalism that was not as much questioned in previous wars.
We are going to have to disagree and move on.
Move on if you want to, but for many, the response to the Vietnam war was a repudiation of the old knee jerk response to unquestioned service to country.
Does anyone else want to weigh in on this?
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:


Does anyone else want to weigh in on this?

I can only give you the view from over the pond. The bulk of the international media coverage seemed to point to the Vietman protests centering around the birth of the counterculture which appears to have started in the US in the late 50's, came to Britain in the early 60's and got turbo-charged and sent back. 

In the UK 60's protests were mostly centered around Ban the Bomb, Feminism, legalising the pill,etc. We were also celebrating the end of conscription, so what was happening in America was viewed, to an extent, as thank (insert deity) it's not us.  

It's also important to remember that although America officially joined the Vietnam war in November 1963, they'd had fingers in that part of the world since March 1947 and the Truman Doctrine.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ The Vietnam protest was diverse ranging from those who saw clearly the evil and futility of the war, to selfish bums only looking out for their own ass. I certainly wouldn't glorify hippies. When I was a kid they were the biggest jerks in the world and pretty much a bunch of idiot bullies.

What I was referring to was the fact that many saw through the old nationalistic rallying cries that got many to enlist in WWII, instead they stood up to a war that was far different from WWII. They knowingly challenged the rhetoric of serving without question. They questioned the nationalism that was not as much questioned in previous wars.
We are going to have to disagree and move on.
Move on if you want to, but for many, the response to the Vietnam war was a repudiation of the old knee jerk response to unquestioned service to country.
Does anyone else want to weigh in on this?
As this can only result in tangents about nationalistic US wars before and after Vietnam, I will indeed move on as the basis in nationlism is self evident. It's amazing how nationalistic a people can get when attacked by a foriegn power.
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^ A people under attack is a far different situation than say a hollywood sourced presidential candidate spouting insincere nationalistic slogans to a sheep like populace.
I think the recent very scary four years we just survived under a 'president' who used nationalism as his favorite calling card has left a very bad taste for nationalism for me. Its dangerous stuff in the hands of a wealthy powerful nation like our own.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

”Imagine no religion” etc. is a sentiment that most of the world’s people would never accept. Not just the fat American Evangelicals we all love to hate, but also the uncontacted tribes of the Amazon and those other completely marginal nations of the world. It’s an elitist notion. I really dislike this song.


In defence of evangelicals, I must say that I have come across many who are neither excessive pie munchers or, indeed, American. I also dare say that there will be some porky American Evangelicals who it is possible to like.
A lot of my relatives and even immediate family are evangelicals. The media likes to exaggerate the more boorish ones. The media does love its easy targets. Evangelicals can be a lot more diverse and complicated than the media would have you believe. I'm sure you would not be surprised.

Erm, it was a joke, a witticism. 

Note to self. Must make more use of emoticons in future.......
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Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

But let's not forget that cannibalism was a tradition somewhere and sometimes, as well as human sacrifices.
Do we really need to preserve all the traditions and the identities?

Find me one actual cannibal who argues that his tradition of cannibalism needs to be preserved. Otherwise I’ll categorise yours as a strawman attack against the idea of preserving legitimate traditions.

Is illiteracy a tradition that needs to be upheld against the scourge of reading? Or hunger a tradition that needs to be upheld against the scourge of food?

YOU dislike religions and conservatism. Typical liberal intolerance masked as enlightened progress.

Cannibals:


P.S. - I'm anarchist, not liberal.  Like this:
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Cannibals:


Did you read the article you linked? It says that the tribe are not cannibals. Even if they were, I’m not looking for an article about cannibals. I’m not interested in your thought experiment. I’m interested in a reasoned defense of cannibalism by a practitioner.
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quite sofistic, isn'it?
There has been a moment in history when killing gladiators was normal, as well as sacrifying children to some deity.
Killing whoever lands on your island is normal for that tribe. Is contaminating their culture right?

You are a US citizen. Maybe in your DNA there are parts coming from various parts of Europe, mixed with natives and even tracks of neanderthals. Being born on a specific side of the ocean is a coincidence. All the rest, culture, nationality, religion, comes later. It's just conventions. Identifying ourselves into a tribe is what makes us similar to the other monkeys. And the anthropologucal reasons behind are the same. Kubrick has shown it very well in the first part of his Soace Odyssey
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

quite sofistic, isn'it?
There has been a moment in history when killing gladiators was normal, as well as sacrifying children to some deity.
Killing whoever lands on your island is normal for that tribe. Is contaminating their culture right?

You are a US citizen. Maybe in your DNA there are parts coming from various parts of Europe, mixed with natives and even tracks of neanderthals. Being born on a specific side of the ocean is a coincidence. All the rest, culture, nationality, religion, comes later. It's just conventions. Identifying ourselves into a tribe is what makes us similar to the other monkeys. And the anthropologucal reasons behind are the same. Kubrick has shown it very well in the first part of his Soace Odyssey


You seem to be an absolute relativist. I am not, and thus I don’t try to justify the unjust. I also would say that all that you see as arbitrary is rather full of meaning, even if we in our imperfect human knowledge fail to understand. Religion, ritual, art, music, these are the things that raise us above the level of animals.
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG]India wasn't a NATION before British occupation helped, perversely, to unite it.  India as a CIVILIZATION existed for millennia but that's not the same thing.  Yes, a body of land somewhat resembling modern India (obviously, Pakistan and Bangladesh are no longer a part of India) existed and was addressed as Hind by the Persians. But I think they too regarded Hind as a land rather than a nation.
please refer to the sources of your statements, otherwise they are of no value. Thanks a lot in advance.
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Originally posted by dodona dodona wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG]India wasn't a NATION before British occupation helped, perversely, to unite it.  India as a CIVILIZATION existed for millennia but that's not the same thing.  Yes, a body of land somewhat resembling modern India (obviously, Pakistan and Bangladesh are no longer a part of India) existed and was addressed as Hind by the Persians. But I think they too regarded Hind as a land rather than a nation.
please refer to the sources of your statements, otherwise they are of no value. Thanks a lot in advance.

Not interested in dealing with THAT much arrogance, thanks. FYI I am Indian, as in resident Indian, not Indian living in USA/UK/Germany etc.
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As India has been mentioned, let's think at what happens between India and Pakistan, formerly a singke nation as designed by the British: they both have atomic bombs and probably they are ready to use them, too. The reason of their clashes seems to stay (correct me from wrong) in ethnics and most of all in religion.

So, has nationalism become a bad word?

No. It has always been bad.

And religion is worse.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ A people under attack is a far different situation than say a hollywood sourced presidential candidate spouting insincere nationalistic slogans to a sheep like populace.
I think the recent very scary four years we just survived under a 'president' who used nationalism as his favorite calling card has left a very bad taste for nationalism for me. Its dangerous stuff in the hands of a wealthy powerful nation like our own.

This I agree with.  I don't think nationalism as a pretext to silence criticism of bad wars is justified.  It is likely what birthed the Ambrose Bierce quip that patriotism wasn't just the last refuge of the scoundrel but that it was the first. People going headlong into a war because nationalism blinded their ability to question whether their country was going into the war for the right reasons is not glorious in any way and is in fact the source of many problems. 
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