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Has Nationalism become a bad word?
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Edited by octopus-4 - April 14 2021 at 06:46
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Many of the responses to the OP so far have stated that a lack of solidarity/kindred spirit with our fellow countrymen could potentially make us more vulnerable to external threats. I'm not remotely convinced this is true given the lucrative arms markets and budgetary resources currently awarded to defence spending in Europe and the US. These are the most recent figures I could find.

In 2018 total defence expenditure for the entire European Community of 27 member states
was 162 billion euros = US$194 billion. Brexit will of course reduce that figure slightly.
This is equivalent to 1.2% of GDP and represents a slight decrease since 2001 when it was 1.4% of GDP.
<span><span><span><span><span lang="EN-GB">In 2018 total
military expenditure by all 29 NATO
members was US$963 billion which accounted for 53 per cent of
world spending.</span></span></span></span></span>
<span><span><span><span><span lang="EN-GB"><span lang="EN-GB"><span>In 2018 Total world military expenditure rose to US$1.8 trillion</span></span></span></span></span></span></span>
In 2019 USA total defence expenditure was US$1.9 trillion = 1.6 trillion euros
This is equivalent to 3.4% of GDP. There was no increase in USA defence spending from 2010 until 2018 (which kinda surprised me frankly)
<span><span><span><span><span lang="EN-GB">
</span></span></span></span></span>
Source: <span lang="EN-GB"><span>Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI)
</span></span>
<span lang="EN-GB"><span>
</span></span>
<span lang="EN-GB"><span>
<The/span></span>


There's no denying as to what you are saying Iain. The proposing of nationlism as a defense against military attacks, invasion, etc., is no more than a justification for it. And that includes my views as well. I think the more substantial argument would be nationlism over globalisation. Especially in the areas of manufacturing and trade but I'm sure that would bring about another bevy of inherent problems to a country that wants to put itself outside of the world market.

Edited by SteveG - April 14 2021 at 06:43
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Ah, but that definition doesn't really work anymore because people aren't always of the same race in a nation and they may not have common ancestry or language.  Certainly we in India still don't have one shared language except, uh, English.

You yourself first pointed out that it’s problematic to call India a nation due to its many diverse peoples and languages. And that it was the British empire which perversely created a united India by way of the English language. So yes, there was no “India” until English united its people, for better or for worse. I’m not celebrating it, just pointing it out. You seem to say the same thing, if not connect the dots in the same way I do. Hindi seems like an attempt at a united India in the same way without the baggage of English, only less successful.
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Folks in this thread are criticising nationalists for blind obedience, which they’ve baked into the pie by defining nationalism as blind obedience. That’s a circular argument.
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:




Again, a beautiful sentinent by Mr. Lennon but is it the least bit practical? Is it enough to counteract tribalism on a world scale?

Edited by SteveG - April 14 2021 at 06:50
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”Imagine no religion” etc. is a sentiment that most of the world’s people would never accept. Not just the fat American Evangelicals we all love to hate, but also the uncontacted tribes of the Amazon and those other completely marginal nations of the world. It’s an elitist notion. I really dislike this song.
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Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

”Imagine no religion” etc. is a sentiment that most of the world’s people would never accept. Not just the fat American Evangelicals we all love to hate, but also the uncontacted tribes of the Amazon and those other completely marginal nations of the world. It’s an elitist notion. I really dislike this song.

In defence of evangelicals, I must say that I have come across many who are neither excessive pie munchers or, indeed, American. I also dare say that there will be some porky American Evangelicals who it is possible to like.
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Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

”Imagine no religion” etc. is a sentiment that most of the world’s people would never accept. Not just the fat American Evangelicals we all love to hate, but also the uncontacted tribes of the Amazon and those other completely marginal nations of the world. It’s an elitist notion. I really dislike this song.
I always thought that it was a dreamer's notion, and I'm not trying to be derogatory. Just too fantastical.
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Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

”Imagine no religion” etc. is a sentiment that most of the world’s people would never accept. Not just the fat American Evangelicals we all love to hate, but also the uncontacted tribes of the Amazon and those other completely marginal nations of the world. It’s an elitist notion. I really dislike this song.
I thought it a bit odd that Islam was missing from your list as they are such a big swath of the religious landscape.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Many Vietnam protesters protested the war because they didn't want to get killed for a cause they didn't believe in. And when it was over they went back to lives of Right Wing statues. I know because I was with them. Contrast that to the thousands who who joined up to fight in Afghanistan and Irsq after 9/11, a cause they did believe in. So don't talk to me about Vietnam protesters because you don't know your ass from your elbow.
Now come the insults, lol. Later dude.
If my strong wording insulted you then I heartedly apologize for it.
If being told that you don't know what you're talking about insulted you then I'm afraid that I can't help you.
I do know what I am talking about, I was in the Vietnam draft, but never had to serve. I know plenty who both served and dodged the war. My step son served in Iraq, he fell for the nationalistic spin and came back a wounded vet only to have his medical needs ignored by his government. That will show you what our country really thinks of 'heroic nationalism'.
My brother in law is a 4 star general who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and all of his children (my nieces) and their spouses served.
What is the part I don't know about?

Edited by Easy Money - April 14 2021 at 07:43
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

In defence of evangelicals, I must say that I have come across many who are neither excessive pie munchers or, indeed, American. I also dare say that there will be some porky American Evangelicals who it is possible to like.

I’m being facetious. They’re everyone’s favourite hobby-horse.
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

”Imagine no religion” etc. is a sentiment that most of the world’s people would never accept. Not just the fat American Evangelicals we all love to hate, but also the uncontacted tribes of the Amazon and those other completely marginal nations of the world. It’s an elitist notion. I really dislike this song.


In defence of evangelicals, I must say that I have come across many who are neither excessive pie munchers or, indeed, American. I also dare say that there will be some porky American Evangelicals who it is possible to like.
A lot of my relatives and even immediate family are evangelicals. The media likes to exaggerate the more boorish ones. The media does love its easy targets. Evangelicals can be a lot more diverse and complicated than the media would have you believe. I'm sure you would not be surprised.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I thought it a bit odd that Islam was missing from your list as they are such a big swath of the religious landscape.

In my experience, the mention of Islam can raise the hackles of some people. I thought it might be best to try not to throw a possible additional controversy into this conversation.


Edited by Crane - April 14 2021 at 07:51
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Many Vietnam protesters protested the war because they didn't want to get killed for a cause they didn't believe in. And when it was over they went back to lives of Right Wing statues. I know because I was with them. Contrast that to the thousands who who joined up to fight in Afghanistan and Irsq after 9/11, a cause they did believe in. So don't talk to me about Vietnam protesters because you don't know your ass from your elbow.
Now come the insults, lol. Later dude.
If my strong wording insulted you then I heartedly apologize for it.
If being told that you don't know what you're talking about insulted you then I'm afraid that I can't help you.
I do know what I am talking about, I was in the Vietnam draft, but never had to serve. I know plenty who both served and dodged the war. My step son served in Iraq, he fell for the nationalistic spin and came back a wounded vet only to have his medical needs ignored by his government. That will show you what our country really thinks of 'heroic nationalism'.
My brother in law is a 4 star general who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and all of his children (my nieces) and their spouses served.
What is the part I don't know about?
And that's worse John. What annoyed me is your defense of the Vietnam War protest as if it was wholly a crusade against US nationalism when it was in plain fact a protest to stop oneself for fighting and dying for a cause that wasn't believed in. There was nothing more noble about it than that for a majority of the protesters. A protest hidden behind the context of a political revolt. Were there really sincere types who felt bad that Vietnamese citizens were killed as colleterial damage, etc.? Of course, but in my experience they were the exceptions to the rule.  
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^ The Vietnam protest was diverse ranging from those who saw clearly the evil and futility of the war, to selfish bums only looking out for their own ass. I certainly wouldn't glorify hippies. When I was a kid they were the biggest jerks in the world and pretty much a bunch of idiot bullies.

What I was referring to was the fact that many saw through the old nationalistic rallying cries that got many to enlist in WWII, instead they stood up to a war that was far different from WWII. They knowingly challenged the rhetoric of serving without question. They questioned the nationalism that was not as much questioned in previous wars.
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Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Many of the responses to the OP so far have stated that a lack of solidarity/kindred spirit with our fellow countrymen could potentially make us more vulnerable to external threats. I'm not remotely convinced this is true given the lucrative arms markets and budgetary resources currently awarded to defence spending in Europe and the US.

Yet in the US, so-called nationalists tend to be critical of large scale interventionism, and would argue that it is exactly their solidarity which gives them any hope to attempt to fight the collusion between politicians and corporations.


That's broadly true on the interventionist front but those same so-called nationalists would baulk at having to pick up the tab for the massive hole in their economy and job losses created by the collapse of arms sales to other nations. (US$175 billion in 2020)
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:




Again, a beautiful sentinent by Mr. Lennon but is it the least bit practical? Is it enough to counteract tribalism on a world scale?


A multi millionaire with 'no possessions' is erm....about to have his white piano repossessed?. Beautiful song certainly and probably sincere but I thought John Lennon a complete hippy prick.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ The Vietnam protest was diverse ranging from those who saw clearly the evil and futility of the war, to selfish bums only looking out for their own ass. I certainly wouldn't glorify hippies. When I was a kid they were the biggest jerks in the world and pretty much a bunch of idiot bullies.

What I was referring to was the fact that many saw through the old nationalistic rallying cries that got many to enlist in WWII, instead they stood up to a war that was far different from WWII. They knowingly challenged the rhetoric of serving without question. They questioned the nationalism that was not as much questioned in previous wars.
We are going to have to disagree and move on.
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:




Again, a beautiful sentinent by Mr. Lennon but is it the least bit practical? Is it enough to counteract tribalism on a world scale?


A multi millionaire with 'no possessions' is erm....about to have his white piano repossessed?. Beautiful song certainly and probably sincere but I thought John Lennon a complete hippy prick.
LOL
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