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Has Nationalism become a bad word? |
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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Two of the most patriotic nations in Europe are the Poles and the Hungarians , probably the 2 countries most in love with each other, even though they do not share language or culture or ethnicity. What they do have in common is monarchs and generals that helped back and forth. Why, you ask? Because both nations are SANDWICHED between two bellicose and imperialistic powers (Germany and Russia), who both coveted, invaded, raped, pillaged and destroyed the land and its people many times over. You think that it does effect your DNA ? Hint: yup......
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10680 |
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^ I don't know, I know a lot of Polish people and I have never encountered this love for Hungary, although they are quite proud of Poland, mostly in a good way from my experience.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10680 |
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^ Hoffman committed suicide, but all the same, I think there were a lot more than 6 anti-Vietnam protestors.
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10680 |
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Nationalism in action is hollywood donald trying to punish people for not standing for the anthem, goodbye individual rights and freedoms.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Many Vietnam protesters protested the war because they didn't want to get killed for a cause they didn't believe in. And when it was over they went back to lives of Right Wing statues. I know because I was with them. Contrast that to the thousands who who joined up to fight in Afghanistan and Irsq after 9/11, a cause they did believe in. So don't talk to me about Vietnam protesters because you don't know your ass from your elbow.
Edited by SteveG - April 13 2021 at 16:59 |
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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Oh I assure you it is very steeped in the culture : Every Pole knows this saying: Polak, Węgier — dwa bratanki,
The full, two-couplet Hungarian version reads
The Polish text may be translated
or, more literally,
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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Even the youth indulge in the saying
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10680 |
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10680 |
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Thanks tszirmay, I'll run all this by my best friend, she is Polish, she will enjoy seeing this and will have something to say I'm sure.
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Could have, should have. Didn't happen. If doing the right thing was a powerful motivation, we wouldn't have racism in this day and age. It was necessary for nationalists (and Gandhi was hardly alone, there were others less enamoured of his non violent means like Tilak or Subhash Chandra Bose who were nevertheless committed nationalists) to sell a bigger dream to the people to mobilize. So I agree with what you said in the first sentence - it is complex. And that is the point I have been trying to make. I get that saying a single word in favour of nationalism today may come across as advocacy of Trump. But I don't care because the concept of nationalism is much older than Trump. It has been harnessed by demagogues like him (somebody from the nation Trump's family came over from, comes to mind) and it has also been used for a good cause like Gandhi. And there are a zillion shades of grey between the two extremes.
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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India wasn't a NATION before British occupation helped, perversely, to unite it. India as a CIVILIZATION existed for millennia but that's not the same thing. Yes, a body of land somewhat resembling modern India (obviously, Pakistan and Bangladesh are no longer a part of India) existed and was addressed as Hind by the Persians. But I think they too regarded Hind as a land rather than a nation. The concept of nation state in the way we understand it is relatively new and is in many ways a response to imperialism. Oppressed peoples everywhere revolted and organised themselves as sovereign nation states no longer part of an empire. This is of course a very generalized explanation. But one sees a spurt in the formation of sovereign nation states in the last two centuries compared to earlier times.
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ExittheLemming ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
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Many of the responses to the OP so far have stated that a lack of solidarity/kindred spirit with our fellow countrymen could potentially make us more vulnerable to external threats. I'm not remotely convinced this is true given the lucrative arms markets and budgetary resources currently awarded to defence spending in Europe and the US. These are the most recent figures I could find. In 2018 total defence expenditure for the entire European Community of 27 member states was 162 billion euros = US$194 billion. Brexit will of course reduce that figure slightly. This is equivalent to 1.2% of GDP and represents a slight decrease since 2001 when it was 1.4% of GDP. In 2018 total
military expenditure by all 29 NATO
members was US$963 billion which accounted for 53 per cent of
world spending. In 2018 Total world military expenditure rose to US$1.8 trillion In 2019 USA total defence expenditure was US$1.9 trillion = 1.6 trillion euros This is equivalent to 3.4% of GDP. There was no increase in USA defence spending from 2010 until 2018 (which kinda surprised me frankly) Source: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Crane ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 08 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 411 |
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It’s a mistake to conflate nation and nation-state IMHO.
The argument could be made that it has more to do with language than with where the borders on a map happen to be in that particular decade. |
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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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Crane ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 08 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 411 |
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Yet in the US, so-called nationalists tend to be critical of large scale interventionism, and would argue that it is exactly their solidarity which gives them any hope to attempt to fight the collusion between politicians and corporations.
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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Ah, but that definition doesn't really work anymore because people aren't always of the same race in a nation and they may not have common ancestry or language. Certainly we in India still don't have one shared language except, uh, English. ![]() ![]() ![]() It also didn't necessarily work in the past because the Mughals came from outside but over a period of time, their culture blended with the native Indian culture and produced its own distinct style of architecture as well as dialects etc. Hindi itself was essentially a variant of Urdu though the Brahminical class adapted Hindi to a Devanagari script and Sanskritised its vocabulary. Like I said, there is a reason why India was just an assortment of multiple kingdoms until the British Empire wiped out all of them (leaving a few princes to survive as rich and glorified slaves of the Empire) and inadvertently united the people in these erstwhile kingdoms into one.
Edited by rogerthat - April 14 2021 at 06:03 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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European Colonialism. The maker of nations.
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Yours and mine.
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