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Has Nationalism become a bad word?

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tszirmay View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:40
Two of the most patriotic nations in Europe are the Poles and the Hungarians , probably the 2 countries most in love with each other, even though they do not share language or culture or ethnicity. What they do have in common is monarchs and generals that helped back and forth. Why, you ask? Because both nations are SANDWICHED between two bellicose and imperialistic powers (Germany and Russia), who both coveted, invaded, raped, pillaged and destroyed the land and its people many times over. You think that it does effect your DNA ?   Hint: yup......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:43
^ I don't know, I know a lot of Polish people and I have never encountered this love for Hungary, although they are quite proud of Poland, mostly in a good way from my experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:48
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ All of the war protestors became wall street mavens, interesting, care to back that wild assumption up with anything factual.
Sure, look up the careers of former Chicago Seven members Jerry Rubin, Stew Allen and Tom Hayden for starters. You can find it in thier Wiki pages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:50
^ Hoffman committed suicide, but all the same, I think there were a lot more than 6 anti-Vietnam protestors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:51
Nationalism in action is hollywood donald trying to punish people for not standing for the anthem, goodbye individual rights and freedoms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:57
Many Vietnam protesters protested the war because they didn't want to get killed for a cause they didn't believe in. And when it was over they went back to lives of Right Wing statues. I know because I was with them. Contrast that to the thousands who who joined up to fight in Afghanistan and Irsq after 9/11, a cause they did believe in. So don't talk to me about Vietnam protesters because you don't know your ass from your elbow.

Edited by SteveG - April 13 2021 at 16:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 17:04
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ I don't know, I know a lot of Polish people and I have never encountered this love for Hungary, although they are quite proud of Poland, mostly in a good way from my experience.
Oh I assure you it is very steeped in the culture : Every Pole knows this saying: Polak, Węgier — dwa bratanki,

i do szabli, i do szklanki,
oba zuchy, oba żwawi,
niech im Pan Bóg błogosławi.

The full, two-couplet Hungarian version reads

Lengyel, magyar – két jó barát,
Együtt harcol s issza borát,
Vitéz s bátor mindkettője,
Áldás szálljon mindkettőre.

The Polish text may be translated

Pole and Hungarian brothers be,
good for fight and good for party.
Both are valiant, both are lively,
Upon them may God's blessings be.

or, more literally,

Pole and Hungarian — two brothers,
good for saber and for glass.
Both courageous, both lively,
May God bless them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 17:10
Even the youth indulge in the saying
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 17:31
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Many Vietnam protesters protested the war because they didn't want to get killed for a cause they didn't believe in. And when it was over they went back to lives of Right Wing statues. I know because I was with them. Contrast that to the thousands who who joined up to fight in Afghanistan and Irsq after 9/11, a cause they did believe in. So don't talk to me about Vietnam protesters because you don't know your ass from your elbow.
Now come the insults, lol. Later dude.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 17:34
Thanks tszirmay, I'll run all this by my best friend, she is Polish, she will enjoy seeing this and will have something to say I'm sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2021 at 00:32
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

 
Well, short answer, I agree with you, but, an oppressed people banding together for whatever reason is far more complex than mere nationalism. I think the salient factor in this situation is trying to throw off the shackles of the oppressor. Once again, someone who cared less about an Indian state could have joined the fight against the British just because it was the right thing to do.

Could have, should have.  Didn't happen.  If doing the right thing was a powerful motivation, we wouldn't have racism in this day and age. It was necessary for nationalists (and Gandhi was hardly alone, there were others less enamoured of his non violent means like Tilak or Subhash Chandra Bose who were nevertheless committed nationalists) to sell a bigger dream to the people to mobilize. 

So I agree with what you said in the first sentence - it is complex.  And that is the point I have been trying to make.  I get that saying a single word in favour of nationalism today may come across as advocacy of Trump.  But I don't care because the concept of nationalism is much older than Trump.  It has been harnessed by demagogues like him (somebody from the nation Trump's family came over from, comes to mind) and it has also been used for a good cause like Gandhi. And there are a zillion shades of grey between the two extremes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2021 at 00:40
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Yes, I'm aware of that, having come from a mixture of European backgrounds but I was referring to the bulwark countries that have endured for ages such as Russia, China, Japan, India, Singapore, etc. These countries have had more rulers and governments that few poeple really know about including various colonial powers. And guess what? They endured for millennias.

India wasn't a NATION before British occupation helped, perversely, to unite it.  India as a CIVILIZATION existed for millennia but that's not the same thing.  Yes, a body of land somewhat resembling modern India (obviously, Pakistan and Bangladesh are no longer a part of India) existed and was addressed as Hind by the Persians. But I think they too regarded Hind as a land rather than a nation. The concept of nation state in the way we understand it is relatively new and is in many ways a response to imperialism. Oppressed peoples everywhere revolted and organised themselves as sovereign nation states no longer part of an empire. This is of course a very generalized explanation.  But one sees a spurt in the formation of sovereign nation states in the last two centuries compared to earlier times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2021 at 02:18
Many of the responses to the OP so far have stated that a lack of solidarity/kindred spirit with our fellow countrymen could potentially make us more vulnerable to external threats. I'm not remotely convinced this is true given the lucrative arms markets and budgetary resources currently awarded to defence spending in Europe and the US. These are the most recent figures I could find.

In 2018 total defence expenditure for the entire European Community of 27 member states
was 162 billion euros = US$194 billion. Brexit will of course reduce that figure slightly.
This is equivalent to 1.2% of GDP and represents a slight decrease since 2001 when it was 1.4% of GDP.
In 2018 total military expenditure by all 29 NATO members was US$963 billion which accounted for 53 per cent of world spending.
In 2018 Total world military expenditure rose to US$1.8 trillion
In 2019 USA total defence expenditure was US$1.9 trillion = 1.6 trillion euros
This is equivalent to 3.4% of GDP. There was no increase in USA defence spending from 2010 until 2018 (which kinda surprised me frankly)

Source: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2021 at 05:19
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Many Vietnam protesters protested the war because they didn't want to get killed for a cause they didn't believe in. And when it was over they went back to lives of Right Wing statues. I know because I was with them. Contrast that to the thousands who who joined up to fight in Afghanistan and Irsq after 9/11, a cause they did believe in. So don't talk to me about Vietnam protesters because you don't know your ass from your elbow.
Now come the insults, lol. Later dude.
If my strong wording insulted you then I heartedly apologize for it. If being told that you don't know what you're talking about insulted you then I'm afraid that I can't help you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2021 at 05:28
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Yes, I'm aware of that, having come from a mixture of European backgrounds but I was referring to the bulwark countries that have endured for ages such as Russia, China, Japan, India, Singapore, etc. These countries have had more rulers and governments that few poeple really know about including various colonial powers. And guess what? They endured for millennias.

India wasn't a NATION before British occupation helped, perversely, to unite it.  India as a CIVILIZATION existed for millennia but that's not the same thing.  Yes, a body of land somewhat resembling modern India (obviously, Pakistan and Bangladesh are no longer a part of India) existed and was addressed as Hind by the Persians. But I think they too regarded Hind as a land rather than a nation. The concept of nation state in the way we understand it is relatively new and is in many ways a response to imperialism. Oppressed peoples everywhere revolted and organised themselves as sovereign nation states no longer part of an empire. This is of course a very generalized explanation.  But one sees a spurt in the formation of sovereign nation states in the last two centuries compared to earlier times.
I have to agree with you as India is really a special case in it's enormous size, differing languages, etc. It was more like countries within a country with it's many kingdoms or Princedoms. Contrast it with the nation states of Italy during the Renaissance. Those were, for all intensive purposes, countries within a country too, but Italy was one nation during the Roman period before reverting back to one after the Renaissance era. So, there is that back and forth in being a central political power with a King ruling in the aftermath.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2021 at 05:47

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

India wasn't a NATION before British occupation helped, perversely, to unite it.  India as a CIVILIZATION existed for millennia but that's not the same thing.  Yes, a body of land somewhat resembling modern India (obviously, Pakistan and Bangladesh are no longer a part of India) existed and was addressed as Hind by the Persians. But I think they too regarded Hind as a land rather than a nation. The concept of nation state in the way we understand it is relatively new and is in many ways a response to imperialism. Oppressed peoples everywhere revolted and organised themselves as sovereign nation states no longer part of an empire. This is of course a very generalized explanation.  But one sees a spurt in the formation of sovereign nation states in the last two centuries compared to earlier times. 


It’s a mistake to conflate nation and nation-state IMHO.


Quote c. 1300, nacioun, "a race of people, large group of people with common ancestry and language," from Old French nacion "birth, rank; descendants, relatives; country, homeland" (12c.) and directly from Latin nationem (nominative natio) "birth, origin; breed, stock, kind, species; race of people, tribe," literally "that which has been born," from natus, past participle of nasci "be born" (Old Latin gnasci), from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget," with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups.


The argument could be made that it has more to do with language than with where the borders on a map happen to be in that particular decade.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2021 at 05:51
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Many of the responses to the OP so far have stated that a lack of solidarity/kindred spirit with our fellow countrymen could potentially make us more vulnerable to external threats. I'm not remotely convinced this is true given the lucrative arms markets and budgetary resources currently awarded to defence spending in Europe and the US.

Yet in the US, so-called nationalists tend to be critical of large scale interventionism, and would argue that it is exactly their solidarity which gives them any hope to attempt to fight the collusion between politicians and corporations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2021 at 06:00
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

India wasn't a NATION before British occupation helped, perversely, to unite it.  India as a CIVILIZATION existed for millennia but that's not the same thing.  Yes, a body of land somewhat resembling modern India (obviously, Pakistan and Bangladesh are no longer a part of India) existed and was addressed as Hind by the Persians. But I think they too regarded Hind as a land rather than a nation. The concept of nation state in the way we understand it is relatively new and is in many ways a response to imperialism. Oppressed peoples everywhere revolted and organised themselves as sovereign nation states no longer part of an empire. This is of course a very generalized explanation.  But one sees a spurt in the formation of sovereign nation states in the last two centuries compared to earlier times. 


It’s a mistake to conflate nation and nation-state IMHO.


Quote c. 1300, nacioun, "a race of people, large group of people with common ancestry and language," from Old French nacion "birth, rank; descendants, relatives; country, homeland" (12c.) and directly from Latin nationem (nominative natio) "birth, origin; breed, stock, kind, species; race of people, tribe," literally "that which has been born," from natus, past participle of nasci "be born" (Old Latin gnasci), from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget," with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups.


The argument could be made that it has more to do with language than with where the borders on a map happen to be in that particular decade.


Ah, but that definition doesn't really work anymore because people aren't always of the same race in a nation and they may not have common ancestry or language.  Certainly we in India still don't have one shared language except, uh, English. LOLLOLLOL  Hindi is spoken by maybe a majority of the population but that still leaves out a large chunk of population that doesn't.  And there is racial diversity in terms of people from the Northeastern states differing in appearance from other Indians, a diversity that has no doubt led to problems in the past and continues to today in pockets. 

It also didn't necessarily work in the past because the Mughals came from outside but over a period of time, their culture blended with the native Indian culture and produced its own distinct style of architecture as well as dialects etc.  Hindi itself was essentially a variant of Urdu though the Brahminical class adapted Hindi to a Devanagari script and Sanskritised its vocabulary.  

Like I said, there is a reason why India was just an assortment of multiple kingdoms until the British Empire wiped out all of them (leaving a few princes to survive as rich and glorified slaves of the Empire) and inadvertently united the people in these erstwhile kingdoms into one.


Edited by rogerthat - April 14 2021 at 06:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2021 at 06:08
European Colonialism. The maker of nations. Unhappy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2021 at 06:09
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

European Colonialism. The maker of nations. Unhappy

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