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Has Nationalism become a bad word?

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SteveG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 12:38
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Yes, I'm aware of that, having come from a mixture of European backgrounds but I was referring to the bulwark countries that have endured for ages such as Russia, China, Japan, India, Singapore, etc. These countries have had more rulers and governments that few poeple really know about including various colonial powers. And guess what? They endured for millennias.


Okay, sorry to disagree yet again, but here we go.

Singapore was created in the 19th century, so has not endured for ages.

The country we now know as India was created after WWII, and had as its creation a huge amount of ethnic and nationalist strife. There was no national India prior to British rule.

Russia, as we know it now, is also relatively modern, its borders stretching from Europe to Eastern Asia only manifesting themselves during the late Imperial era.

Japan - now there is a country and imperial system which has stood the test of time, although with many internal divisions and wars. One of the reasons why the country has survived is owing to much of its history being literally disengaged from the wider world. Indeed, it is still a feature of Japanese nationalism that it was a mistake to open up its ports to America, and to abandon centuries of extremely strict racial purity and isolation.

China is as old as a geographical entity, but there have been many changes over the millennia, with seismic contractions in how its peoples are ruled, but your point about its general borders is true.

Two out of three, then, and five out of five which support my point regarding civilisations and empires falling.
Laz my dear friend, when India was ruled by Moguls, was it called Mogulia? And when Egypt was ruled a dozen different empires was it called anything other than Egypt? These ancient countries have had borders contracting and expanding for ages. And if memory serves, wasn't Russia named after the Scandinavian Viking peoples called the Rus after they set up shop in area from modern day Moscow and extending out to the Steppes?

Edited by SteveG - April 13 2021 at 14:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 13:15
Put me in the camp of nationalism is bad and that its not a recent phenomenon. Having pride in something you fall ass backwards into is at best silly. No nation is inherently great. What makes places great is the ideas and values they promote. And even with that, no country is those ideas and values, so loving the country is missing the point. 

I also agree with whoever said that humanity is the main problem. Unfortunately, the only way to get rid of all of humanity is the burn the earth, which depressingly isn't going to happen for 5 billion years, so we might as well try to get around these problems in other ways. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 13:41
There are actually possible solutions but ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT is just for Star Trek fans and an Orwellian danger. History has given us an early civilization (ooo such a big word) that worked : Ancient Greece was a union of city-states (over 1000 to be precise) that had individual independence but unified in repelling any foreign threat (we know who they were) , where fundamental thinking and mathematical planning created a social phenomenon that still burns brightly in many of our current norms, as well as the notion of direct democracy . In fact, it was so successful that the Renaissance (arguably the greatest human leap forward in all facets of life) was based exactly on that principle of thriving city-states. It is possible to be small and big, to be free and still have responsibilities . Maybe we should read up a bit .....Utopia was a good rock band but not much of a practical social concept. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 14:12
One world government would be extremely difficult to pull off, if not impossible, most governments have a hard enough time ruling their own country, much less adding on anywhere else.
One world environmental catastrophe seems a lot more likely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 14:22
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

There are actually possible solutions but ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT is just for Star Trek fans and an Orwellian danger. History has given us an early civilization (ooo such a big word) that worked : Ancient Greece was a union of city-states (over 1000 to be precise) that had individual independence but unified in repelling any foreign threat (we know who they were) , where fundamental thinking and mathematical planning created a social phenomenon that still burns brightly in many of our current norms, as well as the notion of direct democracy . In fact, it was so successful that the Renaissance (arguably the greatest human leap forward in all facets of life) was based exactly on that principle of thriving city-states. It is possible to be small and big, to be free and still have responsibilities . Maybe we should read up a bit .....Utopia was a good rock band but not much of a practical social concept. 

This is pretty much my thinking. Less big government, more big pulling together when necessary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 14:25
Don't know who introduced this notion of "one world government" but if it was in opposition to nationalism it is a wonderful example of how ridiculous binary thought can be.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 14:33
It’s interesting that everyone automatically makes the jump from nationalism to all these other notions. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the basic idea of love for one’s own nation. It is your nation, it’s where you were born. You weren’t born in any other. Just like one’s own mother is his mother. You love your nation like you love your mother. Some people also hate their nation the way they hate their mother, with a burning contrarianism, and no interest for what should replace them.


Edited by Crane - April 13 2021 at 14:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 14:38
I think globalism is really something for a real aesthete to fear. Globalism is the force that comes to your country and convinces your kids that their attention is best spent on American sitcoms and idiotic Top 20 music. Nationalism seems like the force that opposes by saying, excuse me, we already had our own music here, thanks, and it was better!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 14:53
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the basic idea of love for one’s own nation. It is your nation, it’s where you were born. You weren’t born in any other. Just like one’s own mother is his mother. You love your nation like you love your mother.

You seem willing to insist on this parallel between nation and parenthood, which was dismissed by Shadowyzard in maybe a too rigid way, but I think he was right in the sense that the parallel you are drawing makes no sense: for me, my mother has nothing whatsoever of a similarity with "the nation". It is not my passport that makes up my identity, but my mother and father were very important in that, not my country where I was born. Of course, we are all raised within a specific culture, but that is not the same as belonging to a nation. As soon as values are defined by "nationhood" (in order not to say "nationalism"), I think they are bad values for humanity...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 15:01
^ Yeah, comparing the country I was born in to my Mother does not work for me either, pretty far fetched comparison really.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 15:03
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I think globalism is really something for a real aesthete to fear. Globalism is the force that comes to your country and convinces your kids that their attention is best spent on American sitcoms and idiotic Top 20 music. Nationalism seems like the force that opposes by saying, excuse me, we already had our own music here, thanks, and it was better!
Once again, being suspicious of nationalism does not have to make you open to globalism, its not an either or situation. Personally I remain suspicious of nationalism and globalism, long live the free self determining individual.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 15:53
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Don't know who introduced this notion of "one world government" but if it was in opposition to nationalism it is a wonderful example of how ridiculous binary thought can be.
Well in a microlevel , that is what the EU commission is trying to to do with the European member states : eliminating national constitutions and superimposing the Brussels constitution . AKA Good luck , commissars! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 15:56
I think what Crane is trying to say that there is something inherently intrinsic to identify with your own country, your own culture, your own language, and dare I say it, your own people. Lazland brought up an interesting point about nations and thier longivity or a lack of it. I contend that the former is true for reasons of nationlism. When the Rus people settled in Russia they started a dynasty that lasted centuries. After 600 years in the space of two centuries, the Mongols invaded and ruled that Russia and Belorus area until they were eventually overthrown and cast out by the Rus decendents. Why? Nationlism. The protection of all the things I stated above. A common culture, customs, beliefs and a common peoples nothing like the Asiatic Mongols. These countries endured because of these shared commonalities and pride in them. Or they might have disappeared forever.

Edited by SteveG - April 13 2021 at 15:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:07
Maybe nationalism has become a bad word because of some connotations. I don't think it is a bad thing, as long as it does not go with excesses, such as delusions of ethnic or national superiority or idolization of royals. But being protective towards the own culture (or idiosyncracies, whatever) is not a bad thing in itself, especially in these times when globalization takes over: the Evil Union gradually taking away national sovereignty and imposing silly rules, and national governments dancing to their tunes and making decisions that would have brought them before a fire squad if they did the same things 75 years earlier.

Edited by someone_else - April 14 2021 at 00:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:11
For those who long for the steely embrace of nationalism, there is always North Korea, all for one and one for all. Individual rights be damned.
Protesting the Vietnam war and bringing it to a close was a good example of individually self determined people rising up against nationalism.

Edited by Easy Money - April 13 2021 at 16:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:23
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

my mother and father were very important in that, not my country where I was born.

I think you are hung up on “country,” due to your mention of passport. But think more generally in terms of place and perhaps you will see where I’m coming from. Your mother gave you your flesh and blood. Your place gives you ground to walk upon, a physical matrix within which to move and act. And it is yours inasmuch as you have loved it.

Please, you have no fond memories of a home? Of a particular place you loved? Anywhere, a house, a school, a playground, a forest, anywhere at all. You have nowhere that sticks out in your mind as a place that was formative?


Edited by Crane - April 13 2021 at 16:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:30
^ the word nationalism is not derived from place, it is derived from the word nation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:33
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

For those who long for the steely embrace of nationalism, there is always North Korea, all for one and one for all. Individual rights be damned.
Protesting the Vietnam war and bringing it to a close was a good example of individually self determined people rising up against nationalism.
Yes, the Vietnam War protesters who became Wall Street mavins after hanging up thier protest signs and sucking up to corporate America. Nationalism or anti nationalism is not a temporary state.

Edited by SteveG - April 13 2021 at 16:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:37
^ All of the war protestors became wall street mavens, interesting, care to back that wild assumption up with anything factual.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2021 at 16:40
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ the word nationalism is not derived from place, it is derived from the word nation.

In the US, so-called nationalists are far more likely to be critical of the US gov’t than not. Let’s not pretend that to be a member of a nation means to be blindly obedient to that nation’s reigning gov’t.

Rather, I think of nationalism more along the lines of how SteveG has described it. As tribalism. Thus, a country may actually be said to encompass many nations.
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