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Has Nationalism become a bad word?
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Hiram View Drop Down
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I am not saying nationalism is always a good thing, obviously.  But I also fail to see how it is uniformly bad in every context and there is ample evidence from history of nationalism being invoked to fight the tyranny of imperialism/empires (or just a larger oppressive nation-state).

It'll be interesting to see if in the years (decades actually) to come European Union will collapse. It's obviously big exaggeration to call it a tyranny, but there are people who think and/or feel that way. 

This may be slightly off topic and just my personal experience that doesn't have anything to do with anything, but anyway, re: anarchists. I've personally known two people who defined themselves as anarchists and were very vocal of their persuasion. They both were the most bitter and hateful individuals I've ever known. 
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Err.. that's a beautiful system, but would go over in Western countries like a lead balloon. I said I saw no viable and doable alternative. Key word being doable.

<p ="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; color: rgb69, 69, 69;">

<p ="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; color: rgb69, 69, 69;">The reason why Switzerland is the only country with a form of direct-democracy is because elsewhere politicians do not want to be held accountable by the people . My representative does not know me and I barely know him , yet he vehiculates my social, economic and political wishes. I am sad to report that does not happen. Certainly not in representative governments like the lovely EU . If it is doable in Switzerland , why would that be not doable elsewhere? Answer: Resistance by the careerist politicians , who have a great track record .....of incompetence and privilege . 

Well, I can speak most knowingly about America and it's political workings better than the UK and the EU. Though I'm not altogether ignorant of those political systems. In the US, politicians and political parties are highly influenced by big corporate money, be it oil, food, medical drugs, what have you, and no politician on either side would ever suggest a change from that, or propose laws and ammendnents to change that. And that's what would need to be done just for starters. And as you stated, politicians don't want to be held directly responsible by people. The reasons are manifold as to why it's not a viable political system for the US.

I agree Steve. There is no real interest in reforming the legislative bodies in the US. As you said none of them would pass laws or amend the current system because it's not in their best interest; though of course it would be in the best interest of the people they represent. We should have term limits just like there are on the President. That way there would not be 'careerist politicians ' as tsziramy mentioned.

But sadly people are not very enlightened so it seems. Not to bring spirituality into the discussion but 
J Krishnamurti once said, "Nothing will chnage for the better until there is a fundamental change in the very nature of human consciousness." 

btw...'nationalism' is not the problem.....people are. Wink
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lazland View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Hiram Hiram wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I am not saying nationalism is always a good thing, obviously.  But I also fail to see how it is uniformly bad in every context and there is ample evidence from history of nationalism being invoked to fight the tyranny of imperialism/empires (or just a larger oppressive nation-state).

It'll be interesting to see if in the years (decades actually) to come European Union will collapse. It's obviously big exaggeration to call it a tyranny, but there are people who think and/or feel that way. 

This may be slightly off topic and just my personal experience that doesn't have anything to do with anything, but anyway, re: anarchists. I've personally known two people who defined themselves as anarchists and were very vocal of their persuasion. They both were the most bitter and hateful individuals I've ever known. 

The EU will collapse. So will the UK. So will the US. And so on, and so forth. Basic lesson number one from history is that all systems of government collapse. This can either be done by gentle progression, or, far more frequently, by war, revolution, civil war, and other forms of bloody change.

I might add, by the way, that one of the historical harbingers of such collapse has been a vast increase in bureaucracy, centralisation of government, petty rules, attempting to infuse indigenous populations with outside society and influences against the popular will.

Sound familiar?
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Strangely, governments pass away but the countries endure. That's a bit of nationalism for you.

Edited by SteveG - April 13 2021 at 11:26
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Easy Money View Drop Down
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Re the aforementioned term limits: We already have term limits in the US, they are called elections.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Strangely, governments pass away but the countries endure. That's a bit of nationalism for you.

Now you are stretching it lol... Have you followed world maps over the past few hundred years?  LOL
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lazland View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Strangely, governments pass away but the countries endure. That's a bit of nationalism for you.

Actually, the majority of countries do not endure. The map of Europe is now significantly different to what it was even just a 100 years ago. The Middle East is unrecognisable to pre WWI. The majority of African countries are modern constructs post-colonialism. Ditto South America.

When empires, countries, or political alliances fall, there is inevitably a reconstruction of the geographical borders. I might also add that nationalism in itself is extraordinarily illogical when based upon a construct of “racial purity”. This, of course, is because since the dawn of time, mankind has tended to copulate with other ape like creatures across civilisations. Globalisation in that context is hardly a new thing.

By way of example, all of us have Neanderthal DNA within us, owing to a tendency of Homo Sapiens to shag their hairier cousins.

If you were to meet me, you would instantly say I was a classic English professional male. To a point, yes, but my actual background is an interesting mixture of Maltese, Ashkenazi Jew, Northern English, and these within three generations. I am, I believe, pretty typical.

As with all other aspects of humanity, as I keep banging on about, nothing is straightforward or simple. It is one of the reasons I enjoy doing the PABT so much - to learn about, and to take great pleasure from, the sheer range and absurdity of the apes who are, for now, the dominant species on planet Earth.
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


all of us have Neanderthal DNA within us, owing to a tendency of Homo Sapiens to shag their hairier cousins.



I want this on a T-shirt LOL
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Yes, I'm aware of that, having come from a mixture of European backgrounds but I was referring to the bulwark countries that have endured for ages such as Russia, China, Japan, India, Singapore, etc. These countries have had more rulers and governments that few poeple really know about including various colonial powers. And guess what? They endured for millennias.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the aforementioned term limits: We already have term limits in the US, they are called elections.

Alas, those 'term limits' keep electing the same crooks over and over and ...well you get the drift.
Maybe we need term limits on the people then..?  
But if those limits are good enough for the highest office why aren't they good enough for Congress ?
Maybe the founding fathers made a few mistakes...?
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the aforementioned term limits: We already have term limits in the US, they are called elections.

Alas, those 'term limits' keep electing the same crooks over and over and ...well you get the drift.
Maybe we need term limits on the people then..?  
But if those limits are good enough for the highest office why aren't they good enough for Congress ?
Maybe the founding fathers made a few mistakes...?
Stern Smile
We ended up with Trump for 4 years, so they must have done something wrong. Wink
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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the aforementioned term limits: We already have term limits in the US, they are called elections.

Alas, those 'term limits' keep electing the same crooks over and over and ...well you get the drift.
Maybe we need term limits on the people then..?  
But if those limits are good enough for the highest office why aren't they good enough for Congress ?
Maybe the founding fathers made a few mistakes...?
Stern Smile
We ended up with Trump for 4 years, so they must have done something wrong. Wink

Well...I blame those who elected him..but that's another discussion.  
But term limits would be a good start to even things out and try to make things a bit more honest and responsible. IMHO those who are not in favor of them are probably either a politician , lawyer , or both.  Wink
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Yes, term limits for Congress is a must. And an age limit too. Some of these old geezers look as if they have to be carried into session. Age limits for the Supreme Court too.
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the aforementioned term limits: We already have term limits in the US, they are called elections.

Alas, those 'term limits' keep electing the same crooks over and over and ...well you get the drift.
Maybe we need term limits on the people then..?  
But if those limits are good enough for the highest office why aren't they good enough for Congress ?
Maybe the founding fathers made a few mistakes...?
Stern Smile


How about an age limit while we're at it? Biden is starting to remind me of my Uncle Peter in his dotage who would often forget to wear pants when walking the dog or doing grocery shopping.
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the aforementioned term limits: We already have term limits in the US, they are called elections.

Alas, those 'term limits' keep electing the same crooks over and over and ...well you get the drift.
Maybe we need term limits on the people then..?  
But if those limits are good enough for the highest office why aren't they good enough for Congress ?
Maybe the founding fathers made a few mistakes...?
Stern Smile


How about an age limit while we're at it? Biden is starting to remind me of my Uncle Peter in his dotage who would often forget to wear pants when walking the dog or doing grocery shopping.
What Biden will be like 4 years from now is really scary. But as I keep telling my Trump supporter friends, Trump was so bad that the best alterative was a guy with dementia.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the aforementioned term limits: We already have term limits in the US, they are called elections.

Alas, those 'term limits' keep electing the same crooks over and over and ...well you get the drift.
Maybe we need term limits on the people then..?  
But if those limits are good enough for the highest office why aren't they good enough for Congress ?
Maybe the founding fathers made a few mistakes...?
Stern Smile


How about an age limit while we're at it? Biden is starting to remind me of my Uncle Peter in his dotage who would often forget to wear pants when walking the dog or doing grocery shopping.
What Biden will be like 4 years from now is really scary. But as I keep telling my Trump supporter friends, Trump was so bad that the best alterative was a guy with dementia.
LOL
So true......
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the aforementioned term limits: We already have term limits in the US, they are called elections.


Alas, those 'term limits' keep electing the same crooks over and over and ...well you get the drift.
Maybe we need term limits on the people then..?  
But if those limits are good enough for the highest office why aren't they good enough for Congress ?
Maybe the founding fathers made a few mistakes...?
Stern Smile
Or maybe they get re-elected because they are doing a good job. I still think letting the voting public decide is the best route.
I know a lot of people who hold local and state office, and my ex-wife, as a very active activist works with many state politicians, and fortunately, we do not know any crooks amongst the whole lot.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Yes, I'm aware of that, having come from a mixture of European backgrounds but I was referring to the bulwark countries that have endured for ages such as Russia, China, Japan, India, Singapore, etc. These countries have had more rulers and governments that few poeple really know about including various colonial powers. And guess what? They endured for millennias.

Okay, sorry to disagree yet again, but here we go.

Singapore was created in the 19th century, so has not endured for ages.

The country we now know as India was created after WWII, and had as its creation a huge amount of ethnic and nationalist strife. There was no national India prior to British rule.

Russia, as we know it now, is also relatively modern, its borders stretching from Europe to Eastern Asia only manifesting themselves during the late Imperial era.

Japan - now there is a country and imperial system which has stood the test of time, although with many internal divisions and wars. One of the reasons why the country has survived is owing to much of its history being literally disengaged from the wider world. Indeed, it is still a feature of Japanese nationalism that it was a mistake to open up its ports to America, and to abandon centuries of extremely strict racial purity and isolation.

China is as old as a geographical entity, but there have been many changes over the millennia, with seismic contractions in how its peoples are ruled, but your point about its general borders is true.

Two out of three, then, and five out of five which support my point regarding civilisations and empires falling.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re the aforementioned term limits: We already have term limits in the US, they are called elections.


Alas, those 'term limits' keep electing the same crooks over and over and ...well you get the drift.
Maybe we need term limits on the people then..?  
But if those limits are good enough for the highest office why aren't they good enough for Congress ?
Maybe the founding fathers made a few mistakes...?
Stern Smile
Or maybe they get re-elected because they are doing a good job. I still think letting the voting public decide is the best route.
I know a lot of people who hold local and state office, and my ex-wife, as a very active activist works with many state politicians, and fortunately, we do not know any crooks amongst the whole lot.

By and large, I agree. As someone who had to work closely with politicians on many campaigns back in the day, the vast majority are well meaning people, and not crooks, a generalisation which says as much about the electorate as it does about the politicians.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

 Championing the individual and their self-determination stands in contrast to the globalist and the nationalist. Standing up to nationalism does not make you a globalist, it makes you a freedom loving individual.


Had you stood up to nationalism in pre-independent India, you would have only served to further the cause of the British Empire. 
Standing up to tyranny is also the mark of a proud lover of individual freedom and self determination. Standing up to tyranny does not necessarily have to do with nationalism, it has more to do with standing up for what is morally right and throwing off your oppressors.


I think this is the sentiment with which I agree the most out of the posts in this thread that I've read so far. In fact, I'll go even further and say that in the hypothetical scenario of the particular stretch of dirt in which fate determined that I should be born being governed by a brutal dictatorship I would actively welcome its dissolution and incorporation into a different state if that state were genuinely democratic and egalitarian. My loyalty lies with ideas and principles, not with arbitrary territorial or ethnic distinctions.
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