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Easy Money 
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 Posted: April 13 2021 at 07:58 |
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Whether you are conservative, liberal or something in between, the alternative to nationalism is the individual. Free self determination functioning in a free society ruled by just law.
The individual is free to praise their country when it is right, and free to condemn their country when it is wrong. National pride is no excuse for ignoring the higher standards of what is morally right or wrong. The complex humanity of the individual stands in contrast to the drab conformity and uniform of the nationalist.
Discovery, exploration, music, art, poetry and love come from the individual, not the drab world of the uniformed nationalist. Nationalism chokes life down to a simple common denominator, where you just happened to be born.
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dr wu23
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:00 |
 SteveG wrote:
Shadowyzard wrote:
Crane wrote:
It’s not realistic to say “no borders, no countries.” It’s like saying you prefer to have no name and have no body. Well, you have a name and you have a body, whether you like it or not. It’s called being alive.
Nationalism can be taken to extremes, unfortunately. But I think it’s basically the expression of an instinct quite natural to all of us. We can speak of our indiscriminate love for all mankind, but out of all men, we’ll always love our own mother and father the most (those sad cases of abuse notwithstanding). |
You have some real rubbish rambling here. What is realistic and natural for you is ridiculous. I'll not bother to put my 2 cents here, as your arguments are worthless. |
We had 4 pages of a civil discussion between left and right viewpoints up until this post. Congratulations for breaking the peace. There is nothing the least bit rubbish or rambling about Crane's post. He is emphasizing neo-tribalism, the modern social construct of tribalism, which I may add, is believed to be true by many social scientists, and seems more sensible than any one world no borders concept.
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Crane
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:12 |
Easy Money wrote:
Whether you are conservative, liberal or something in between, the alternative to nationalism is the individual. Free self determination functioning in a free society ruled by just law.
The individual is free to praise their country when it is right, and free to condemn their country when it is wrong. National pride is no excuse for ignoring the higher standards of what is morally right or wrong. The complex humanity of the individual stands in contrast to the drab conformity and uniform of the nationalist.
Discovery, exploration, music, art, poetry and love come from the individual, not the drab world of the uniformed nationalist. Nationalism chokes life down to a simple common denominator, where you just happened to be born. |
Yet it is globalism which turns countries into ideologically indistinguishable ‘global villages’ like the Borg, and it seems to be so-called nationalists who oppose this most vehemently of all. May explain why nationalism has become such a dirty word: its opponents are the ones who engineer the global culture.
Edited by Crane - April 13 2021 at 08:17
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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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lazland
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:14 |
Blacksword wrote:
One thing's for sure, a One World plan is never going to transpire without the genocide of all those who oppose it, leaving behind only the advocates. Nationalism, patriotism (whatever you want to call it) and the nation state are here to stay, for better or worse.
The waving of flags and generalised mild, even unconscious xenophobia are symptoms of the human condition, and won't change.
In any case the best way to keep nationalism alive, is to maintain a 'poor class' who have little else to hang their pride on, beyond arbitrary citizenship in their birth nation, and the belief that that matters. Fill these peoples bellies, put money in their bank accounts, and give them prospects and they'll start making constructive choices, and questioning their bad ones. That's when government finds itself in trouble  |
Andy, that last paragraph really does display a most shocking level of cynicism, and I honestly do not say that to have a pop at you, but as an observation.
The Human Condition, eh? A wonderful conceit!
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lazland
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:18 |
Crane wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Whether you are conservative, liberal or something in between, the alternative to nationalism is the individual. Free self determination functioning in a free society ruled by just law.
The individual is free to praise their country when it is right, and free to condemn their country when it is wrong. National pride is no excuse for ignoring the higher standards of what is morally right or wrong. The complex humanity of the individual stands in contrast to the drab conformity and uniform of the nationalist.
Discovery, exploration, music, art, poetry and love come from the individual, not the drab world of the uniformed nationalist. Nationalism chokes life down to a simple common denominator, where you just happened to be born. |
Yet it is globalism which turns countries into ideologically indistinguishable ‘global villages’ like the Borg, and it seems to be so-called nationalists who oppose this most vehemently of all. |
I find this a very interesting post, as well, especially The Borg reference. I see this myself over here in Great Britain, especially in the recent history of government departments calling themselves “corporates” and “businesses”. What is encouraged here is a really depressing type of “group think” and anyone who has the temerity to depart from this had better watch out. I have made similar observations elsewhere on this thread and on the site. The way that many, or most, people like to queue up and be told what to do in their simplest day to day tasks is beyond depressing, really.
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SteveG
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:22 |
lazland wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
One thing's for sure, a One World plan is never going to transpire without the genocide of all those who oppose it, leaving behind only the advocates. Nationalism, patriotism (whatever you want to call it) and the nation state are here to stay, for better or worse.
The waving of flags and generalised mild, even unconscious xenophobia are symptoms of the human condition, and won't change.
In any case the best way to keep nationalism alive, is to maintain a 'poor class' who have little else to hang their pride on, beyond arbitrary citizenship in their birth nation, and the belief that that matters. Fill these peoples bellies, put money in their bank accounts, and give them prospects and they'll start making constructive choices, and questioning their bad ones. That's when government finds itself in trouble |
Andy, that last paragraph really does display a most shocking level of cynicism, and I honestly do not say that to have a pop at you, but as an observation.
The Human Condition, eh? A wonderful conceit! |
Well, Andy is an unapologetic Marxist...
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Easy Money
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:25 |
Crane wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Whether you are conservative, liberal or something in between, the alternative to nationalism is the individual. Free self determination functioning in a free society ruled by just law.
The individual is free to praise their country when it is right, and free to condemn their country when it is wrong. National pride is no excuse for ignoring the higher standards of what is morally right or wrong. The complex humanity of the individual stands in contrast to the drab conformity and uniform of the nationalist.
Discovery, exploration, music, art, poetry and love come from the individual, not the drab world of the uniformed nationalist. Nationalism chokes life down to a simple common denominator, where you just happened to be born. |
Yet it is globalism which turns countries into ideologically indistinguishable ‘global villages’ like the Borg, and it seems to be so-called nationalists who oppose this most vehemently of all.
May explain why nationalism has become such a dirty word: its opponents are the ones who engineer the global culture. |
Championing the individual and their self-determination stands in contrast to the globalist and the nationalist. Standing up to nationalism does not make you a globalist, it makes you a freedom loving individual.
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Blacksword
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:26 |
lazland wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
One thing's for sure, a One World plan is never going to transpire without the genocide of all those who oppose it, leaving behind only the advocates. Nationalism, patriotism (whatever you want to call it) and the nation state are here to stay, for better or worse.
The waving of flags and generalised mild, even unconscious xenophobia are symptoms of the human condition, and won't change.
In any case the best way to keep nationalism alive, is to maintain a 'poor class' who have little else to hang their pride on, beyond arbitrary citizenship in their birth nation, and the belief that that matters. Fill these peoples bellies, put money in their bank accounts, and give them prospects and they'll start making constructive choices, and questioning their bad ones. That's when government finds itself in trouble |
Andy, that last paragraph really does display a most shocking level of cynicism, and I honestly do not say that to have a pop at you, but as an observation.
The Human Condition, eh? A wonderful conceit! |
I agree totally. Very cynical. It's a cynical world we live in. My closing contention is also fairly narrow in scope, I admit. Nationalism can just as much be catalyzed by wealth as it can by poverty. My world view has always been quite dark. I've never felt pride in my country but neither do I hate it. I always felt that both patriotism and nationalism were substitutes for something more important that people couldn't or wouldn't grasp. Maybe if I'd lived through a war, I'd feel different.
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SteveG
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:26 |
lazland wrote:
Crane wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Whether you are conservative, liberal or something in between, the alternative to nationalism is the individual. Free self determination functioning in a free society ruled by just law.
The individual is free to praise their country when it is right, and free to condemn their country when it is wrong. National pride is no excuse for ignoring the higher standards of what is morally right or wrong. The complex humanity of the individual stands in contrast to the drab conformity and uniform of the nationalist.
Discovery, exploration, music, art, poetry and love come from the individual, not the drab world of the uniformed nationalist. Nationalism chokes life down to a simple common denominator, where you just happened to be born. |
Yet it is globalism which turns countries into ideologically indistinguishable ‘global villages’ like the Borg, and it seems to be so-called nationalists who oppose this most vehemently of all. |
I find this a very interesting post, as well, especially The Borg reference. I see this myself over here in Great Britain, especially in the recent history of government departments calling themselves “corporates” and “businesses”. What is encouraged here is a really depressing type of “group think” and anyone who has the temerity to depart from this had better watch out. I have made similar observations elsewhere on this thread and on the site. The way that many, or most, people like to queue up and be told what to do in their simplest day to day tasks is beyond depressing, really. |
Shades of the Animals album, I dare say. Amazing how this sheep like thinking and behavior is never changing, no matter how much of it has been criticized in art and literature through the decades.
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Blacksword
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:31 |
SteveG wrote:
lazland wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
One thing's for sure, a One World plan is never going to transpire without the genocide of all those who oppose it, leaving behind only the advocates. Nationalism, patriotism (whatever you want to call it) and the nation state are here to stay, for better or worse.
The waving of flags and generalised mild, even unconscious xenophobia are symptoms of the human condition, and won't change.
In any case the best way to keep nationalism alive, is to maintain a 'poor class' who have little else to hang their pride on, beyond arbitrary citizenship in their birth nation, and the belief that that matters. Fill these peoples bellies, put money in their bank accounts, and give them prospects and they'll start making constructive choices, and questioning their bad ones. That's when government finds itself in trouble |
Andy, that last paragraph really does display a most shocking level of cynicism, and I honestly do not say that to have a pop at you, but as an observation.
The Human Condition, eh? A wonderful conceit! |
Well, Andy is an unapologetic Marxist...
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Am I? I didn't know that. I'm worried now...
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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SteveG
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:39 |
Blacksword wrote:
SteveG wrote:
lazland wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
One thing's for sure, a One World plan is never going to transpire without the genocide of all those who oppose it, leaving behind only the advocates. Nationalism, patriotism (whatever you want to call it) and the nation state are here to stay, for better or worse.
The waving of flags and generalised mild, even unconscious xenophobia are symptoms of the human condition, and won't change.
In any case the best way to keep nationalism alive, is to maintain a 'poor class' who have little else to hang their pride on, beyond arbitrary citizenship in their birth nation, and the belief that that matters. Fill these peoples bellies, put money in their bank accounts, and give them prospects and they'll start making constructive choices, and questioning their bad ones. That's when government finds itself in trouble |
Andy, that last paragraph really does display a most shocking level of cynicism, and I honestly do not say that to have a pop at you, but as an observation.
The Human Condition, eh? A wonderful conceit! |
Well, Andy is an unapologetic Marxist...
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Am I? I didn't know that. I'm worried now... |
No need to worry. It's like a 24 hour flu bug. When you wake up tomorrow you'll be checking your latest compound interest.
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:40 |
Easy Money wrote:
Championing the individual and their self-determination stands in contrast to the globalist and the nationalist. Standing up to nationalism does not make you a globalist, it makes you a freedom loving individual. |
Had you stood up to nationalism in pre-independent India, you would have only served to further the cause of the British Empire.
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Blacksword
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:46 |
SteveG wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
SteveG wrote:
lazland wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
One thing's for sure, a One World plan is never going to transpire without the genocide of all those who oppose it, leaving behind only the advocates. Nationalism, patriotism (whatever you want to call it) and the nation state are here to stay, for better or worse.
The waving of flags and generalised mild, even unconscious xenophobia are symptoms of the human condition, and won't change.
In any case the best way to keep nationalism alive, is to maintain a 'poor class' who have little else to hang their pride on, beyond arbitrary citizenship in their birth nation, and the belief that that matters. Fill these peoples bellies, put money in their bank accounts, and give them prospects and they'll start making constructive choices, and questioning their bad ones. That's when government finds itself in trouble |
Andy, that last paragraph really does display a most shocking level of cynicism, and I honestly do not say that to have a pop at you, but as an observation.
The Human Condition, eh? A wonderful conceit! |
Well, Andy is an unapologetic Marxist...
|
Am I? I didn't know that. I'm worried now... |
No need to worry. It's like a 24 hour flu bug. When you wake up tomorrow you'll be checking your latest compound interest. |
Over my soy latte, and before my daily bicycle ride with Owen Jones...
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SteveG
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:47 |
Blacksword wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
SteveG wrote:
lazland wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
One thing's for sure, a One World plan is never going to transpire without the genocide of all those who oppose it, leaving behind only the advocates. Nationalism, patriotism (whatever you want to call it) and the nation state are here to stay, for better or worse.
The waving of flags and generalised mild, even unconscious xenophobia are symptoms of the human condition, and won't change.
In any case the best way to keep nationalism alive, is to maintain a 'poor class' who have little else to hang their pride on, beyond arbitrary citizenship in their birth nation, and the belief that that matters. Fill these peoples bellies, put money in their bank accounts, and give them prospects and they'll start making constructive choices, and questioning their bad ones. That's when government finds itself in trouble |
Andy, that last paragraph really does display a most shocking level of cynicism, and I honestly do not say that to have a pop at you, but as an observation.
The Human Condition, eh? A wonderful conceit! |
Well, Andy is an unapologetic Marxist...
|
Am I? I didn't know that. I'm worried now... |
No need to worry. It's like a 24 hour flu bug. When you wake up tomorrow you'll be checking your latest compound interest. |
Over my soy latte, and before my daily bicycle ride with Owen Jones... |
 Quite.
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tszirmay
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 08:58 |
SteveG wrote:
Err.. that's a beautiful system, but would go over in Western countries like a lead balloon. I said I saw no viable and doable alternative. Key word being doable. |
The reason why Switzerland is the only country with a form of direct-democracy is because elsewhere politicians do not want to be held accountable by the people . My representative does not know me and I barely know him , yet he vehiculates my social, economic and political wishes. I am sad to report that does not happen. Certainly not in representative governments like the lovely EU . If it is doable in Switzerland , why would that be not doable elsewhere? Answer: Resistance by the careerist politicians , who have a great track record .....of incompetence and privilege .
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Easy Money
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 09:01 |
rogerthat wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Championing the individual and their self-determination stands in contrast to the globalist and the nationalist. Standing up to nationalism does not make you a globalist, it makes you a freedom loving individual. |
Had you stood up to nationalism in pre-independent India, you would have only served to further the cause of the British Empire. |
Standing up to tyranny is also the mark of a proud lover of individual freedom and self determination. Standing up to tyranny does not necessarily have to do with nationalism, it has more to do with standing up for what is morally right and throwing off your oppressors.
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rogerthat
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 09:08 |
Easy Money wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Championing the individual and their self-determination stands in contrast to the globalist and the nationalist. Standing up to nationalism does not make you a globalist, it makes you a freedom loving individual. |
Had you stood up to nationalism in pre-independent India, you would have only served to further the cause of the British Empire. |
Standing up to tyranny is also the mark of a proud lover of individual freedom and self determination. Standing up to tyranny does not necessarily have to do with nationalism, it has more to do with standing up for what is morally right and throwing off your oppressors. |
But what you don't seem to appreciate is that to get a mass of people to stand up against tyranny requires self determination around the idea of a nation-state. Gandhi had to sell the idea of an independent nation of India as something to aspire to in order for people to rally around him. Nation-states in many cases, including the US, were a response to the tyranny of supra-national empires.
I am not saying nationalism is always a good thing, obviously. But I also fail to see how it is uniformly bad in every context and there is ample evidence from history of nationalism being invoked to fight the tyranny of imperialism/empires (or just a larger oppressive nation-state).
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SteveG
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 09:13 |
tszirmay wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Err.. that's a beautiful system, but would go over in Western countries like a lead balloon. I said I saw no viable and doable alternative. Key word being doable. |
<p ="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; color: rgb69, 69, 69;"> <p ="p1" style="margin: 0px; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; color: rgb69, 69, 69;">The reason why Switzerland is the only country with a form of direct-democracy is because elsewhere politicians do not want to be held accountable by the people . My representative does not know me and I barely know him , yet he vehiculates my social, economic and political wishes. I am sad to report that does not happen. Certainly not in representative governments like the lovely EU . If it is doable in Switzerland , why would that be not doable elsewhere? Answer: Resistance by the careerist politicians , who have a great track record .....of incompetence and privilege . |
Well, I can speak most knowingly about America and it's political workings better than the UK and the EU. Though I'm not altogether ignorant of those political systems. In the US, politicians and political parties are highly influenced by big corporate money, be it oil, food, medical drugs, what have you, and no politician on either side would ever suggest a change from that, or propose laws and ammendnents to change that. And that's what would need to be done just for starters. And as you stated, politicians don't want to be held directly responsible by people. The reasons are manifold as to why it's not a viable political system for the US.
Edited by SteveG - April 13 2021 at 09:19
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Easy Money
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 09:17 |
rogerthat wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Championing the individual and their self-determination stands in contrast to the globalist and the nationalist. Standing up to nationalism does not make you a globalist, it makes you a freedom loving individual. |
Had you stood up to nationalism in pre-independent India, you would have only served to further the cause of the British Empire. |
Standing up to tyranny is also the mark of a proud lover of individual freedom and self determination. Standing up to tyranny does not necessarily have to do with nationalism, it has more to do with standing up for what is morally right and throwing off your oppressors. |
But what you don't seem to appreciate is that to get a mass of people to stand up against tyranny requires self determination around the idea of a nation-state. Gandhi had to sell the idea of an independent nation of India as something to aspire to in order for people to rally around him. Nation-states in many cases, including the US, were a response to the tyranny of supra-national empires.
I am not saying nationalism is always a good thing, obviously. But I also fail to see how it is uniformly bad in every context and there is ample evidence from history of nationalism being invoked to fight the tyranny of imperialism/empires (or just a larger oppressive nation-state). |
Well, short answer, I agree with you, but, an oppressed people banding together for whatever reason is far more complex than mere nationalism. I think the salient factor in this situation is trying to throw off the shackles of the oppressor. Once again, someone who cared less about an Indian state could have joined the fight against the British just because it was the right thing to do.
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: April 13 2021 at 09:53 |
Blacksword wrote:
In any case the best way to keep nationalism alive, is to maintain a
'poor class' who have little else to hang their pride on, beyond
arbitrary citizenship in their birth nation, and the belief that that
matters. Fill these peoples bellies, put money in their bank accounts,
and give them prospects and they'll start making constructive choices,
and questioning their bad ones. That's when government finds itself in
trouble |
I don't think your perspective overly cynical at all. The political class have always publicly supported education but covertly despised it as it reduces their ability to have an electorate do their bidding e.g. to go to war, vote for them, target scapegoats for all societal ills etc Education can really only teach us at best, self awareness and critical thinking. Most politicians usually offer us (imaginary) rights but seldom our very real moral obligation not to be complete self serving dicks.
Edited by ExittheLemming - April 13 2021 at 11:05
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