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Has Nationalism become a bad word?
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Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

It depends on what you mean but i general the term nationalist is not something you entitle yoursself; it would no look good in a jobb resume, but where on drives the line between patriotisme, nationalisme and national soisialisme/nazisme is emotionaly difficult to do. It is all about where the emphesize is; if its culturally motivate then it's ok (accordikg to Walter Benjamin) if it's used politicly motivated; than it becomes a negative (accoording to Walter Benjamin)
A very good answer. I suppose many people align it into the old socialist/Nazi meaning when it's meant as an expression of patriotism. And I need to check out Walter Benjamin.
my bacground is a semi-bachelor in history and some attempts at aesthetic theory which includes some sociology about art and politics (vary neat actualy).

Based on how I understand the rize of both good and bad effects of 100 years ( between 1814 - 1900) of rize of norwegian indipendence from 450 years of union either to Denmark or Sweden) a nurturing and fertile led by idelology and renewable thoughts art, drama, litterature, music and language was hot topics locally which resulted in people like Munch, Ibsen, and Grieg. Mostly motivited by cultural growth and finding a voice and a collective story, collecting of fairytales.

Parallel to that the fear of politicized nationalisme and missuse of art as a way to sway political opinion or sway the population was being expressed in both accademic circuits im france and germany. Walter Benjamin became sort of the tragic hero to many of hes fellow Frankfurter school collegues - he wrote most of hes fears in a final essay which did not get released until after hes suicicide. Hes fear of being cought nad the distress became much worse then the fear of living life in distress and in unknowing.

The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction

"That in the age of mechanical reproduction and the absence of traditional and ritualistic value, the production of art would be inherently based upon the praxis of politics. Written during the Nazi regime (1933–1945) in Germany, Benjamin’s essay presents a theory of art that is “useful for the formulation of revolutionary demands in the politics of art” in a mass-culture society.[2]"

is a describtion of thw fear he felt was real if art and peoples expression gets misused in the power of repruduction; as a text it stil have some questioks which have relevnce today, even though also is a text out of its time.
Fascinating. I'm very interested in how art is used as propaganda and will definitely explore this man's work.
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From Wikipedia. Agree?

Nationalism

is an idea and movement that promotes the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people),[1] especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland. Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity[2] and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty).[1][3] It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5] and to promote national unity or solidarity.[1] Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements.[6] It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism. Nationalism is often combined with other ideologies such as conservatism (national conservatism) or socialism (left-wing nationalism).[2]

Throughout history, people have had an attachment to their kin group and traditions, territorial authorities and their homeland, but nationalism did not become a widely recognized concept until the end of the 18th century.[9] There are three paradigms for understanding the origins and basis of nationalism. Primordialism (perennialism) proposes that there have always been nations and that nationalism is a natural phenomenon. Ethnosymbolism explains nationalism as a dynamic, evolutionary phenomenon and stresses the importance of symbols, myths and traditions in the development of nations and nationalism. Modernization theory proposes that nationalism is a recent social phenomenon that needs the socio-economic structures of modern society to exist.[10]

 



Edited by SteveG - April 12 2021 at 12:57
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Yes, nationalism is a bad thing.
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Nationalism is and has been such a bad word in my lexicon that I might call it the “N” word in polite company. Patriotism doesn’t have the same level of negative connotations for me, although it still does, so I don’t feel the need to abbreviate it to “P” to be polite when saying it. I will poo poo “P” though, and those who are stridently full of it, or claiming to be bursting at the seams with PP (Patriotic Pride). Too much national P and the whole world drowns, one might say.
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Taken from the definition above, we can see how nationalism inevitably leads to racism in a country that is already multi-cultural:

"It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5]."

Edited by Easy Money - April 12 2021 at 14:10
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Nationalism has taken on a bad reputation recently mostly fuelled by the utopist/anarchist crowd, who look to alter/erase history (not a good thing) to suit some agenda of absolute equality and purity.  In fact, there are 2 kinds of Nationalism . First, you have offensive militaristic warrior societies who want to expand their power (such as Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and Soviet Russia), all have been historically condemned and rightly so. 

Then you have the defensive nationalism whereby protecting your home /homeland from outside aggression is a duty (if an intruder tried to enter your home and threaten your family , would you fight back or just hope that they are "terrestrial"?) . Would you protect your home only and not your homeland ? This second group of nationalists are made famous by names such as Gandhi, Mandela, Ho Chi Minh, Levesque, Garibaldi, Bismarck, or even Tito and Castro (2 authoritarian dictators though). Making it simple when its all quite complex is a slippery slope. 
I am reminded of the motto of a Swiss school I attended in the 70s: "Be proud of hour heritage but respect those of others ". That is simple....

Yes, it's impossible to say that Gandhi and Mandela are not nationists, at least it your definition of the term.
I disagree about Garibaldi. His right-hand man Bixio experimented the killing of civilians decades before the nazis.

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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Taken from the definition above, we can see how nationalism inevitably leads to racism in a country that is already multi-cultural:

"It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5]."

Like Switzerland , with 4 languages and two major religions Confused
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Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Taken from the definition above, we can see how nationalism inevitably leads to racism in a country that is already multi-cultural:

"It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5]."

Like Switzerland , with 4 languages and two major religions Confused

And as I pointed out, the SNP and Plaid Cymru in Scotland and Wales are basically of the same political hue as Democrats in America, or the centre left parties in England. Both are committed to multicultural and multi ethnic societies in their respective countries, the only issue for them being that they want independence from the UK, or essentially England.

Nationalist parties are not necessarily right wing or racist, although I could make a cogent argument that the root core of many Plaid and Scot Nats supporters is a serious dislike of the English, so we can see that both you and John, in very different ways, are right, and that this debate is nothing like as simplistic as people would like to pretend. 
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

 
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Taken from the definition above, we can see how nationalism inevitably leads to racism in a country that is already multi-cultural:

"It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5]."

Like Switzerland , with 4 languages and two major religions Confused

And as I pointed out, the SNP and Plaid Cymru in Scotland and Wales are basically of the same political hue as Democrats in America, or the centre left parties in England. Both are committed to multicultural and multi ethnic societies in their respective countries, the only issue for them being that they want independence from the UK, or essentially England.

Nationalist parties are not necessarily right wing or racist, although I could make a cogent argument that the root core of many Plaid and Scot Nats supporters is a serious dislike of the English, so we can see that both you and John, in very different ways, are right, and that this debate is nothing like as simplistic as people would like to pretend. 
Yes, a simple yes or no answer to the question of my opening post is not viable and I'm surprised that some have gone the simplistic route. It is possible that a political ideology has both intrinsic positive and negitive aspects that can't be easily separated. Or ever be separated.

Edited by SteveG - April 12 2021 at 15:35
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

 
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Taken from the definition above, we can see how nationalism inevitably leads to racism in a country that is already multi-cultural:

"It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5]."

Like Switzerland , with 4 languages and two major religions Confused

And as I pointed out, the SNP and Plaid Cymru in Scotland and Wales are basically of the same political hue as Democrats in America, or the centre left parties in England. Both are committed to multicultural and multi ethnic societies in their respective countries, the only issue for them being that they want independence from the UK, or essentially England.

Nationalist parties are not necessarily right wing or racist, although I could make a cogent argument that the root core of many Plaid and Scot Nats supporters is a serious dislike of the English, so we can see that both you and John, in very different ways, are right, and that this debate is nothing like as simplistic as people would like to pretend. 
Yes, a simple yes or no answer to the question of my opening post is not viable and I'm surprised that some have gone the simplistic route. It is possible that a political idiology has both intrinsic positive and negitive aspects that can't be easily separated. Or ever be separated.

Absolutely. Everybody should understand that one of the major issues we have in the world, and in the west in particular, is the recent triumph of dumbed down and simplistic debate and government, a crime of which the media are in particular very guilty.

Human life, emotions, politics, world affairs, you name it are not straightforward or capable of being answered by ridiculous sound bites and headline chasing tidbits. It is an extremely depressing state of affairs, and as you know, I hold the liberal left as much to blame for this as the populist right. Indeed, it has led to my breaking away from it totally and never to return.

This can only take us to a very bad place, and the rise of intolerance and ultimately totalitarian victory is my prediction of where we are going. It might not happen in our lifetimes, but history is a fickle mistress, and once a tide has turned, it is very often too late to steer the ship back. I don’t think we are quite there yet, but we are not far off.

Now. Anybody wish to no platform me for these shocking illiberal opinions? 
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Oh, liberals have thier share of blame and it comes down to the yes or no mentality. In the States we are in the throws of cancel culture where a person is shutdown forever for some trivial imperfection in an imperfect world full of imperfections. That's my right wing rant for today.

Edited by SteveG - April 12 2021 at 15:44
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, liberals have thier share of blame and it comes down to the yes or no mentality. In the States we are in the throws of cancel culture where a person is shutdown forever for some trivial imperfection in an imperfect world full of imperfections. That's my right wing rant for today.
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This sums it all for me...Maher is left of center and so am I , but......
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It's true. Great minds do think alike. Seriously, thanks for posting that Doug.

Edited by SteveG - April 12 2021 at 16:01
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Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

 
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Taken from the definition above, we can see how nationalism inevitably leads to racism in a country that is already multi-cultural:

"It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5]."

Like Switzerland , with 4 languages and two major religions Confused

And as I pointed out, the SNP and Plaid Cymru in Scotland and Wales are basically of the same political hue as Democrats in America, or the centre left parties in England. Both are committed to multicultural and multi ethnic societies in their respective countries, the only issue for them being that they want independence from the UK, or essentially England.

Nationalist parties are not necessarily right wing or racist, although I could make a cogent argument that the root core of many Plaid and Scot Nats supporters is a serious dislike of the English, so we can see that both you and John, in very different ways, are right, and that this debate is nothing like as simplistic as people would like to pretend. 
Yes, a simple yes or no answer to the question of my opening post is not viable and I'm surprised that some have gone the simplistic route. It is possible that a political idiology has both intrinsic positive and negitive aspects that can't be easily separated. Or ever be separated.

Absolutely. Everybody should understand that one of the major issues we have in the world, and in the west in particular, is the recent triumph of dumbed down and simplistic debate and government, a crime of which the media are in particular very guilty.

Human life, emotions, politics, world affairs, you name it are not straightforward or capable of being answered by ridiculous sound bites and headline chasing tidbits. It is an extremely depressing state of affairs, and as you know, I hold the liberal left as much to blame for this as the populist right. Indeed, it has led to my breaking away from it totally and never to return.

This can only take us to a very bad place, and the rise of intolerance and ultimately totalitarian victory is my prediction of where we are going. It might not happen in our lifetimes, but history is a fickle mistress, and once a tide has turned, it is very often too late to steer the ship back. I don’t think we are quite there yet, but we are not far off.

Now. Anybody wish to no platform me for these shocking illiberal opinions? 

To your judicious point, Ted Koppel was asked upon his retirement if he feared the future of media in the Internet world and he replied that journalism has always been based on the W5 (who, what, where, when and why) but in the web age, there will be NO TIME for the why, because it may take too long to do the research. Oddly, when a crime is committed , the first thing the police ask is when and where (pretty straightforward) , followed hopefully by the what and the who. The Why? who knows and who cares..... That is where we are at, while being flippant about all kinds of overtly simplistic explanations , many are totally disinterested in the verification of facts and just drone on about all the negatives. In this thread, many have poopoohed nationalism but no one has of yet offered a positive alternative (except our anarchist friends who offer chaos , as per Proudhon and Bakunin) . Oh well.....plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose....
I have disavowed both the left and the right as two sides of the same coin ,(they cannot really live without the other) and have been an advocate of direct democracy, where educated people decide by referendum the correct course of collective action. Like in Switzerland , a notoriously rabid nationalist/patriotic nation. 


Edited by tszirmay - April 12 2021 at 17:08
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Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

In this thread, many have poopoohed nationalism but no one has of yet offered a positive alternative (except our anarchist friends who offer chaos , as per Proudhon and Bakunin) . Oh well.....plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose....


"A cosmic order without a God is impossible."

"Anarchy without chaos is impossible."

Same shallowness...
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Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

 
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Taken from the definition above, we can see how nationalism inevitably leads to racism in a country that is already multi-cultural:

"It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history,[4][5]."

Like Switzerland , with 4 languages and two major religions Confused

And as I pointed out, the SNP and Plaid Cymru in Scotland and Wales are basically of the same political hue as Democrats in America, or the centre left parties in England. Both are committed to multicultural and multi ethnic societies in their respective countries, the only issue for them being that they want independence from the UK, or essentially England.

Nationalist parties are not necessarily right wing or racist, although I could make a cogent argument that the root core of many Plaid and Scot Nats supporters is a serious dislike of the English, so we can see that both you and John, in very different ways, are right, and that this debate is nothing like as simplistic as people would like to pretend. 
Yes, a simple yes or no answer to the question of my opening post is not viable and I'm surprised that some have gone the simplistic route. It is possible that a political idiology has both intrinsic positive and negitive aspects that can't be easily separated. Or ever be separated.


Absolutely. Everybody should understand that one of the major issues we have in the world, and in the west in particular, is the recent triumph of dumbed down and simplistic debate and government, a crime of which the media are in particular very guilty.

Human life, emotions, politics, world affairs, you name it are not straightforward or capable of being answered by ridiculous sound bites and headline chasing tidbits. It is an extremely depressing state of affairs, and as you know, I hold the liberal left as much to blame for this as the populist right. Indeed, it has led to my breaking away from it totally and never to return.

This can only take us to a very bad place, and the rise of intolerance and ultimately totalitarian victory is my prediction of where we are going. It might not happen in our lifetimes, but history is a fickle mistress, and once a tide has turned, it is very often too late to steer the ship back. I don’t think we are quite there yet, but we are not far off.

Now. Anybody wish to no platform me for these shocking illiberal opinions? 


To your judicious point, Ted Koppel was asked upon his retirement if he feared the future of media in the Internet world and he replied that journalism has always been based on the W5 (who, what, where, when and why) but in the web age, there will be NO TIME for the why, because it may take too long to do the research. Oddly, when a crime is committed , the first thing the police ask is when and where (pretty straightforward) , followed hopefully by the what and the who. The Why? who knows and who cares..... That is where we are at, while being flippant about all kinds of overtly simplistic explanations , many are totally disinterested in the verification of facts and just drone on about all the negatives. In this thread, many have poopoohed nationalism but no one has of yet offered a positive alternative (except our anarchist friends who offer chaos , as per Proudhon and Bakunin) . Oh well.....plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose....
I have disavowed both the left and the right as two sides of the same coin ,(they cannot really live without the other) and have been an advocate of direct democracy, where educated people decide by referendum the correct course of collective action. Like in Switzerland , a notoriously rabid nationalist/patriotic nation. 


There is no positive alternative. Only a negative one. That a foreign power will eventually swallow up a country that hates itself. Why bother to protect something you despise? Why fight for it? There is no better system just as thier are no better democratic governments. There is no perfect democratic system either. And this is something that countries like Russia and China live for. Already, Russia is massing 50,000 soldiers on the Ukraine border. If they will take over a country that wants no part of them then think what they will do to a country with no nationalist pride and patriotism.

Nationalism is either a positive thing or a necessary evil, depending on one's view point. But it is the only thing that will stop an expansionist power from taking over a free nation. And these countries will never entertain the idea of a no borders one world system. Unless they control it and it's citizens.

Edited by SteveG - April 12 2021 at 18:25
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Very cogent and sadly true status as proven by history , yesterday and beyond. This is where the danger lies, do we all collectively bend over because we HATE our own impotence ? Or do we defend our values, as imperfect as they are. China is looking at the West as a weak-kneed, chaotic and negative society whose time has come. China is now a bully , pushing a global dominance agenda that is clear and immediate, expressed by their own media. First in Asia, if there is no reaction, the next step is beyond. Its not as much nationalism that is the current bad but global blind surrender to greedy and nuclear megalomaniacs. 
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Yes, as Laz said, there is no simple catch all answer. There are many more problems involved then just a lack of nationalism. But you have to start somewhere.
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I'm not sure but i'm finding it more awkward these days to include "antidisestablishmentarianism" into a casual conversation. Confused

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It was never a topic that rolled off of one's tongue. Now or yesterday.
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