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SteveG View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 12 2021 at 06:51
Often associated with the right wing political stance that is against globalism, has nationalism become a bad word to the left? What about pride in one's own country and putting it before the concerns of other nations? Is that necessarily a bad thing?

Edited by SteveG - April 12 2021 at 06:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:16
It depends on what you mean but i general the term nationalist is not something you entitle yoursself; it would no look good in a jobb resume, but where on drives the line between patriotisme, nationalisme and national soisialisme/nazisme is emotionaly difficult to do. It is all about where the emphesize is; if its culturally motivate then it's ok (according to Walter Benjamin) if it's used politicly motivated; than it becomes a negative (accoording to Walter Benjamin)

Edited by Icarium - April 12 2021 at 10:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:29
It has always been a bad thing for me. 
Think: proud for your nation (against each other)
          proud for your region (against the rest of your nation)
          proud for your city (against the rest of your region)
... and so on.

Does it really makes sense?

Proud for your tribe, your club, your relatives, your bedroom...

I am a terrestrial. This the only label that I can accept.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:31
Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

It depends on what you mean but i general the term nationalist is not something you entitle yoursself; it would no look good in a jobb resume, but where on drives the line between patriotisme, nationalisme and national soisialisme/nazisme is emotionaly difficult to do. It is all about where the emphesize is; if its culturally motivate then it's ok (accordikg to Walter Benjamin) if it's used politicly motivated; than it becomes a negative (accoording to Walter Benjamin)
A very good answer. I suppose many people align it into the old socialist/Nazi meaning when it's meant as an expression of patriotism. And I need to check out Walter Benjamin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:34
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

It has always been a bad thing for me. 
Think: proud for your nation (against each other)
          proud for your region (against the rest of your nation)
          proud for your city (against the rest of your region)
... and so on.

Does it really makes sense?

Proud for your tribe, your club, your relatives, your bedroom...

I am a terrestrial. This the only label that I can accept.
I understand your view. However, when a football fan is for his team and against the other, is that not the same thing, as geographical regions are what's being represented by the competing teams.

Edited by SteveG - April 12 2021 at 07:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:36
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

It has always been a bad thing for me. 
Think: proud for your nation (against each other)
          proud for your region (against the rest of your nation)
          proud for your city (against the rest of your region)
... and so on.

Does it really makes sense?

Proud for your tribe, your club, your relatives, your bedroom...

I am a terrestrial. This the only label that I can accept.
I understand your view. However, when a football fan is for his team and against the other, is that not the same thing, as geographical regions are what's being represented by the competing teams.
I'm neither a football fan, effectively.
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:38
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

It has always been a bad thing for me. 
Think: proud for your nation (against each other)
          proud for your region (against the rest of your nation)
          proud for your city (against the rest of your region)
... and so on.

Does it really makes sense?

Proud for your tribe, your club, your relatives, your bedroom...

I am a terrestrial. This the only label that I can accept.
I understand your view. However, when a football fan is for his team and against the other, is that not the same thing, as geographical regions are what's being represented by the competing teams.
I'm neither a football fan, effectively.
That's commendable Luca, but it doesn't answer my question. Is it not the same thing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:39
I think the widespread disavowal of nationalism in Europe was a reaction to the horrors of WW2 (as was the emergence of the rather bleak world view of Existentialism) You could also argue that the fear of a recurrence of something as abhorrent as the Nazi regime was one of the pivotal driving forces behind the formation of the European Union. I've always been deeply suspicious of entreaties to national identity and pride: How much talent or virtue does it take to be born within a country's borders? People often ask me if I'm proud to be Scottish. I always answer that I've never had to fight for my country, I've never invented or created anything for the betterment of my fellow creatures and I've never represented my nation in a sporting capacity so such sentiments strike me as basking in the reflected glory of my forebears. Identity politics is one of the banes of our age and similar to how we misappropriate the idea of culture, just becomes yet another self serving ploy for those who are either unable or unwilling to articulate their own ideas.


Edited by ExittheLemming - April 12 2021 at 07:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vompatti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:42
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

It has always been a bad thing for me. 
Think: proud for your nation (against each other)
          proud for your region (against the rest of your nation)
          proud for your city (against the rest of your region)
... and so on.

Does it really makes sense?

Proud for your tribe, your club, your relatives, your bedroom...

I am a terrestrial. This the only label that I can accept.
I understand your view. However, when a football fan is for his team and against the other, is that not the same thing, as geographical regions are what's being represented by the competing teams.
I'm neither a football fan, effectively.
That's commendable Luca, but it doesn't answer my question. Is it not the same thing?
Yes, it's the same thing. The left is not for competitive sports.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:43
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

How much talent or virtue does it take to be born within a country's borders? People often ask me if I'm proud to be Scottish? I always answer that I've never had to fight for my country, I've never invented or created anything for the betterment of my fellow creatures and I've never represented my nation in a sporting capacity so such sentiments strike me as basking in the reflected glory of our forebears.
Some good arguments worth considering.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:46
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

It has always been a bad thing for me. 
Think: proud for your nation (against each other)
          proud for your region (against the rest of your nation)
          proud for your city (against the rest of your region)
... and so on.

Does it really makes sense?

Proud for your tribe, your club, your relatives, your bedroom...

I am a terrestrial. This the only label that I can accept.
I understand your view. However, when a football fan is for his team and against the other, is that not the same thing, as geographical regions are what's being represented by the competing teams.
I'm neither a football fan, effectively.
That's commendable Luca, but it doesn't answer my question. Is it not the same thing?
Yes, it's the same thing. The left is not for competitive sports.
I know many lefties who are Ranger's fans and love it when Canadian teams get beaten. Perhaps that's just a North American thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 07:57
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

It has always been a bad thing for me. 
Think: proud for your nation (against each other)
          proud for your region (against the rest of your nation)
          proud for your city (against the rest of your region)
... and so on.

Does it really makes sense?

Proud for your tribe, your club, your relatives, your bedroom...

I am a terrestrial. This the only label that I can accept.
I understand your view. However, when a football fan is for his team and against the other, is that not the same thing, as geographical regions are what's being represented by the competing teams.
I'm neither a football fan, effectively.
That's commendable Luca, but it doesn't answer my question. Is it not the same thing?
Yes, it's the same thing. The left is not for competitive sports.
I know many lefties who are Ranger's fans and love it when Canadian teams get beaten. Perhaps that's just a North American thing.
Let's put it in this way: there's a certain difference between a football supporter and a hooligan, so there's a difference between one proud of his nation and a fascist.

Anyway, I like discussing politics in a different kind of social, so I'll just tell you why I'm (no longer) a football fan:

Many years ago, the Italian football federation, after realizing that all the Serie A teams have bribed about the naturalization of foreign players, decided to change the rules on the fly, otherwise the whole championship would have been relegated.

Later, a colleague told me who were the designed winners of Championship, cup and Cupwinners cup. And it happened.
Finally, another guy gave me the full results of the last championship day imcluding the sequence of the goals match by match.

Having realized that soccer is as credible as wrestling, I have decided to follow other sports, like i.e. Alpine Ski (as mentioned in my last review currently on the home page).

About politics, I'm proudly anarchist and Mikhail Bakunin is my favorite phylosopher. Try reading some of his books. 

No races, no nations.
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 08:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Often associated with the right wing political stance that is against globalism, has nationalism become a bad word to the left? What about pride in one's own country and putting it before the concerns of other nations? Is that necessarily a bad thing?


Nationalism has always been bad, not just for left wingers. Nationalism means often expansionism and annexations, all the while excluding those who don't belong. It is a form of narrow parochialism or isolationism.
I much prefer a certain form of patriotism than nationalism.

That's why the nationalist Brexit was bad: excluding those that are not insulary people.


let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 08:00
Just one thing more: havign worked some years in the NW of UK, I still check what Chester does, but this year the National League North has been canceled because of the pandemic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 08:01
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Let's put it in this way: there's a certain difference between a football supporter and a hooligan, so there's a difference between one proud of his nation and a fascist.


Worthy of being included on anyone's signature. Kudos. Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 08:02
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:



Nationalism has always been bad, not just for left wingers. Nationalism means often expansionism and annexations, all the while excluding those who don't belong. It is a form of narrow parochialism or isolationism.




Exactly what I was meaning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 08:03
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:


It has always been a bad thing for me. 
Think: proud for your nation (against each other)
          proud for your region (against the rest of your nation)
          proud for your city (against the rest of your region)
... and so on.

Does it really makes sense?

Proud for your tribe, your club, your relatives, your bedroom...

I am a terrestrial. This the only label that I can accept.
I understand your view. However, when a football fan is for his team and against the other, is that not the same thing, as geographical regions are what's being represented by the competing teams.


I'm neither a football fan, effectively.

That's commendable Luca, but it doesn't answer my question. Is it not the same thing?
Yes, it's the same thing. The left is not for competitive sports.
I know many lefties who are Ranger's fans and love it when Canadian teams get beaten. Perhaps that's just a North American thing.

Let's put it in this way: there's a certain difference between a football supporter and a hooligan, so there's a difference between one proud of his nation and a fascist.

Anyway, I like discussing politics in a different kind of social, so I'll just tell you why I'm (no longer) a football fan:

Many years ago, the Italian football federation, after realizing that all the Serie A teams have bribed about the naturalization of foreign players, decided to change the rules on the fly, otherwise the whole championship would have been relegated.

Later, a colleague told me who were the designed winners of Championship, cup and Cupwinners cup. And it happened.
Finally, another guy gave me the full results of the last championship day imcluding the sequence of the goals match by match.

Having realized that soccer is as credible as wrestling, I have decided to follow other sports, like i.e. Alpine Ski (as mentioned in my last review currently on the home page).

About politics, I'm proudly anarchist and Mikhail Bakunin is my favorite phylosopher. Try reading some of his books. 

No races, no nations.
Ok, I'll give Bakunin a try but he might be too extreme for a brain washed Anerican like me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 08:05
In the UK, English nationalism is usually sensationalised to a bunch of right wing nutcases, completely forgetting the vast silent majority who are proud of their country, but feel no need whatsoever to denigrate, or fight with, other nations.

In Scotland and Wales, the nationalists are left of centre metropolitan liberals, or at least the leadership of SNP and Plaid Cymru are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 08:08
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Let's put it in this way: there's a certain difference between a football supporter and a hooligan, so there's a difference between one proud of his nation and a fascist.


Worthy of being included on anyone's signature. Kudos. Clap
I've been to some big soccer games in the UK and in some instances the fans were not very different from hooligans.   

Edited by SteveG - April 12 2021 at 08:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2021 at 08:17
Nationalism has taken on a bad reputation recently mostly fuelled by the utopist/anarchist crowd, who look to alter/erase history (not a good thing) to suit some agenda of absolute equality and purity.  In fact, there are 2 kinds of Nationalism . First, you have offensive militaristic warrior societies who want to expand their power (such as Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and Soviet Russia), all have been historically condemned and rightly so. 

Then you have the defensive nationalism whereby protecting your home /homeland from outside aggression is a duty (if an intruder tried to enter your home and threaten your family , would you fight back or just hope that they are "terrestrial"?) . Would you protect your home only and not your homeland ? This second group of nationalists are made famous by names such as Gandhi, Mandela, Ho Chi Minh, Levesque, Garibaldi, Bismarck, or even Tito and Castro (2 authoritarian dictators though). Making it simple when its all quite complex is a slippery slope. 
I am reminded of the motto of a Swiss school I attended in the 70s: "Be proud of hour heritage but respect those of others ". That is simple....


Edited by tszirmay - April 12 2021 at 08:24
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