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Early British Prog vs American. Discuss. |
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SteveG 
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 Posted: March 26 2021 at 23:19 |
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As a matter of fact, all but one artist that I've cited as examples are listed here, but that seems to hold little sway anyway with this topic, even though they are listed in the correct subgenres.
Edited by SteveG - March 26 2021 at 23:28 |
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Awesoreno
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Posted: March 26 2021 at 23:41 |
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I would go ahead and just call it Post-Music. Maybe The Residents and Mr. Bungle would fit that too?
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Progishness
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 00:54 |
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I totally agree there. MD never was or ever will be prog in my book. A truly great jazz artist, yes, but prog no.
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Progishness
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 00:59 |
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I'd certainly say that if you are going to have the wonderful Annette Peacock here then she probably belongs in Jazz Rock/Fusion. Terry Riley probably belongs in a category of his own.
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 04:23 |
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I think the problem is because of the way the original question was posed. Had Steve not used the word “movement”, my initial response would have been very different. I agree with 99% of all the points and posts I’ve seen from Steve and Bryan. But by suggesting there ever was an early US prog movement is what has had people talking about the more symphonic/European style bands. It’s not that people believe there was no US prog before Kansas and co. It’s not that people don’t think Zappa and Beefheart aren’t prog. It’s purely a misunderstanding about the question (which I misunderstood, too). If we disregard the idea of a movement, and purely compare what was going on in the US at the time there was an accepted UK prog movement, you get a very different discussion from the one that has evolved over trying to work out when the US prog movement (if one ever existed) began. And this is the discussion that pretty much only Steve and Bryan are carrying out. So, for the record, I reiterate my original points, but now in a different context. Before I used these points to suggest why people were not giving the answer that was being sought, because people were trying to find a movement that could be compared and contrasted more easily with the early UK prog movement, and so were ignoring the comparison and contrasts that could be made between what was going on in the UK and the US at the same time. The US prog movement perhaps doesn’t appear as much of a movement, purely because the progressive rock scene (for all that it was appreciated overseas), was a mainly Europe and especially British (and British Commonwealth) phenomenon. There are a number of reasons that have been given for why there was not as overt a movement in the US. Geographically, the smaller area of the UK allowed a lot more cross-pollination and appreciation, while the US bands pretty much remained in their own pockets. US musicians also tended to have a blues background, while Europeans were often more likely to be influenced by classical music. This can even be seen in the pre/proto prog of psychedelic music. There is often a distinct difference in sound and influence between UK and US psychedelia. The music industries were also quite different within the UK and US. All these and more led to the US coming out with quite different music than what was coming out across the Atlantic, and arguably far more experimental and progressive than much of the UK prog of the same time. The Velvet Underground were more experimental and progressive than much of the UK prog that came after them. They’re not even on this site as prog-related or proto-prog! I’m not arguing they should be, but I think it shows that this site is skewed more toward what people view as prog from the UK viewpoint, than the US prog music. US prog definitely began at least as early as, and quite possibly earlier than, the early UK prog scene - but it developed completely independently and sounded very different. It was definitely more about the experimental and avant-garde. The Velvet Underground’s debut came out in the same year as Sgt Pepper, and both are immensely important and influential albums. Both receive the same criticism about being overrated - but whether you like them or not is irrelevant. Subjectively you might find them overrated, but objectively there is no way they are overrated. (I’m setting myself up for an argument there, I know.....) John Cale, after moving from the UK to the US, worked with John Cage and La Monte Young, who Bryan also preferred as early examples of US prog - and again, I find it hard to disagree. Mo Tucker was an experimental drummer who sought to integrate African rhythms with rock. She is possibly looked down upon because her drumming is simpler than most prog drummers, but I think this is completely overlooking what she was trying to achieve. Her greatest influence was Nigerian drummer, Babatunde Olatunje. In order to get the sound she wanted, she improvised on a far smaller drum kit than most drummers would even consider, often using mallets instead of drumsticks, and very rarely using cymbals. She played standing up as the African drummers she was influenced by did. Her rhythms may be “simple” compared to a lot of prog drummers, but they added another otherworldly aspect to an already out of this world band. Terry Riley is prog related according to PA, but at least he is here. His influence on what I guess we are calling US prog is undeniable. Like Cage, he worked with La Monte Young, but also other potential US prog names such as Morton Subotnick and Steve Reich. For me, Riley is undoubtedly prog, and even if in PA terms he is not, I would have thought proto-prog might have been a better fit than prog related - in terms of his influence. There are so many prog albums that I think can be traced back, at least in part, to what Riley was doing. One thing I find vaguely amusing is how so much modern prog uses drone, but the original experimental and progressive musicians who composed around drone tend not to be recognised as prog. Reed and Cale both used drone, and their different methodology around creating the drone is part of what made early VU so interesting. La Monte Young - drone. Angus MacLise, who played with Cale, with Young, and with Riley - drone. Tony Conrad, who thankfully is in PA (though it is under Krautrock, which makes me wonder if he snuck in only because of his collaboration with Faust) - drone. Were all of these members of The Dream Syndicate? I have a feeling they all were. Is the Dream Syndicate prog? Again, I would say so. Then again, I don’t believe they have any official releases. Plenty of stuff on YouTube, though, for those who might be interested. (eg https://youtu.be/7_VHBt4Q0d4 ) Annette Peacock has been mentioned, and with good reason! Definitely US prog. She is known as one of the first to extensively use a Moog. As was Mort Garson. Now, admittedly he is not from the US, but rather from neighbouring Canada. However his musical career was almost wholly within the US. I reviewed the re-release of Didn’t You Hear last year for TPA: This intriguing soundtrack is actually from 1970, but could easily have soundtracked 2020, the year it finally received not only an official re-release, but also its first conventional release. Often bootlegged, the original album could only be purchased from the lobby at screenings of the film it soundtracked. Mort Garson, like so many session musicians, is a name not widely known, apart perhaps from his magnificently bizarre Plantasia album which was re-released in 2019 (originally released in 1976). Garson had been working in the music industry from the 1950s not just as a musician but in any capacity for any or all of the roles on any given session: composer, arranger, orchestrator, conductor, you name it, Garson would do it, and do it well. He wrote hit singles, composed advertising jingles, and incidental music for film. More importantly, when it comes to this album, after Garson met Robert Moog in 1967, he became one of the first arrangers and composers to work with the Moog synthesizer, and his early electronic albums are now highly prized among collectors. You’re unlikely to come across an original copy of this soundtrack, and if you do you’re unlikely to be able to afford it. But for those who don’t want a bootleg, 2020 finally sees Didn’t You Here?receiving a long overdue (re)release. And it is so worth your time. Ignore the first and last tracks, and dip straight into the strange and wondrous sounds of one of the the first all-electronic film soundtracks (I mean, if you want to listen to the first and last tracks, there’s nothing stopping you – but be aware that they’re really not representative of the score. I don’t dislike them, but find they detract from what makes the remainder sound so innovative and unique.) |
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Crane
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Joined: September 08 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 411 |
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 05:56 |
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> this site is skewed more toward what people view as prog from the UK viewpoint
And someone else called this website a symphonic prog website. I think that’s a core issue in this discussion. Truly, I’m a new member and am still getting used to the parameters of the discussions around here. Lurking in the background is the question, can this artist be added to PA? That’s an important frame to any discussion about prog rock history. To recap: If the site skews toward a definition of prog that is strictly European, meaning influence by classical music, then of course 20th c. avant garde classical-influenced artists like La Monte Young won’t be considered prog. This leaves us with dilemmas. We’re unable to account for Frank Zappa, and avant prog more generally. And Tony Conrad is Krautrock. But I guess that doesn’t bother the community at large. Fair enough!
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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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Crane
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 06:11 |
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Yes! Jon Hassell (the trumpeter/composer whose music I posted in the Porg Heathens group) was also a member. Hassell also played with Miles Davis, incidentally, who is a lot more prog than any of these losers according to PA
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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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nick_h_nz
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Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 06:22 |
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^To add to that essay, Bryan shared a video on FB from a US artist K. Leimer performing as Savant. To my ears you can easily trace this back to the Theater of Eternal Music artists, with a little David Byrne added along the way.
Like Mort Garson, David Byrne may not have been born in the US, but most of his musical life is there. Alongside funk and afrobeat, two of his main influences are known to be Captain Beefheart and Velvet Underground. The VU also have the Theater of Eternal Music link, of course. And then you have Talking Heads, which definitely have VU as an influence (not just from Byrne). Jerry Harrison had played with Jonathan Richman, who for me is another US prog candidate, and Modern Lovers were overtly influenced by VU, albeit with their own unique take on that music. In keeping with Bryan’s thesis on US prog, I have kind of avoided the jazz fusion scene. But, apart from Miles Davis also always being given as one of Byrne’s loves and influences, many more modern (though now long in the past) bands were influenced by both strands: US prog (as per our new nomenclature) and fusion. Galaxie 500 notably were influenced by on one hand, VU and Jonathan Richman, and on the other Sun Ra and Ornette Coleman (one of their albums being named after a Coleman album as a tribute). They were also influenced by a band closed to their own time, Sonic Youth. Sonic Youth have always been hugely experiential and progressive, but obviously not quite prog enough for PA, by the definitions PA imposes. Again, influenced majorly by VU, but two of their main stated influences are actually John Cage and Henry Cowell. Cowell is not someone I recall being mentioned yet (though it is entirely possible), because obviously he is a lot earlier than everyone else being discussed. For convenience only, here is Cowell’s wiki page, which is fair dripping with superlatives: I know classical is one thing brought up (including by myself) as the difference between UK and US prog, but I don’t think classical influence in US prog detracts from Bryan’s thesis. The classical influences of US prog artists tends to come from US composers (such as Henry Cowell) or from foreign composers who spent much of their life in the US, where they could have more freedom than in their home countries (and it is that sense of freedom which is intrinsic and integral to Bryan’s thesis, from my reading). Composers like Leo Ornstein and Edgard Varese (and to a lesser extent, Igor Stravinsky) all composed most of their important and influential classical works in the US. Captain Beefheart was influenced by a lot of free jazz, and since I’ve already mentioned him, Ornette Coleman is one such influence. This jazz influence runs through future potential US prog bands, even when it is unexpected. Minutemen are probably not a band that immediately springs to mind as being prog (most of their early songs were only a minute or so long), and ostensibly punk. But their main stated influence was always Captain Beefheart, and they would list off jazz and funk artists as influences. Mike Watt of the Minutemen has an extensive discography which is all over the place musically, as he has always had an experimental and progressive mindset. He is presently a member of Banyan, who are part of the modern art rock scene. They are a bit prog, a bit jazz, a bit funk, and a lot of fun. Banyan’s stated influences are Igor Stravinsky and Miles Davis. Honestly, I think you could, with a little work, make a twisted sort of family tree that shows lineage of US prog (regardless of whether it is considered prog according to the PA definition), from early on until now, and I think it would largely hold to Bryan’s thesis. Unfortunately, because the discussion is on this forum, it is likely to be detailed (as it has been) because of what people on this forum consider to be prog (or not). And perhaps that, more than anything else, is the difference between UK prog and US prog? 🤔🤷🏻♂️ |
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 06:29 |
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I listened to that again, by the way, and really enjoyed it. I expected to, to be honest. I was just surprised by what I heard the first time, as it was so different from my expectations of what I was going to hear. US prog, for sure! 👍🏻 And at least he is in PA! 😜 |
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SteveG
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 08:36 |
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Ok, I see the error of my ways by referring to 60s avant prog as a movement, instead of "movement" in quotes. A musical "movement" in rock is not the same as a political movement which has a social dynamic, a defined set of goals and principles as well as meetings to discuss those goals, achievements and future endeavors.
If we look at the early British prog "movement", there was no set goals and agenda and social dynamic between artists. What united them, generally, was a central influence or influences. Some KC members stated it was the Beatles trippy songs that employed mellotron and a distinct disregard for the blues and US based musical motifs so dominant in pop rock music of that era. Genesis are said to have used KC's first album as a template in creating thier debut album. And so it goes. The main defining characteristic of the early British prog "movement" was a defined set of influences, and little more. I have used that criteria when describing the late sixties US avant/experimental "movement", and nothing more. If I realised that the word movement was so misunderstood in this context I certainly would have not used it. As I've stated many times in posts in this forum, music does not exist in a vacuum and is the result of influences. Edited by SteveG - March 27 2021 at 08:47 |
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SteveG
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 09:10 |
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Edited by SteveG - March 27 2021 at 09:16 |
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 09:35 |
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I don’t think there was an error in your ways. You were implying one thing, and I (and others) inferred something different. As soon as I understood what you had meant, I changed tack and tried to contribute to the discussion, rather than further derail it. I definitely don’t think you were wrong to use the word movement, and I was just pointing out how it had been misunderstood. Im not convinced there were many actual movements in prog at all. RIO is one that comes to mind. Otherwise, what constitutes a movement becomes largely subjective - as the bands and artists themselves never claimed to be part of a movement contemporaneously. I do think the reason there is so much confusion is down to the fact that a lot of US prog, because it is so different to what people perceive as prog (based on UK prog, generally) isn’t actually recognised as prog. That so many of the names that you, Bryan or I have mentioned are not included in PA at all, or are pigeonholed into genres that seem almost arbitrary, shows how overlooked and underrated US prog (as has been “defined” in this thread) is. As you say, music doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and is a result of its influences. Most people recognise the influences of UK prog, and try to impose those influences elsewhere to define prog. It doesn’t work that way. Also, as I said to Bryan elsewhere, it’s completely disingenuous to suggest that Zappa is an anomaly and is his own genre, etc. It’s naive to suggest that Zappa came from nowhere, and left leaving only his own mark. He has clear musical antecedents, and clear musical influence on those who came after. But, in a way, I get why people say it, as he is still somewhat of an anomaly. I don’t think that’s an insult, so much as a compliment to just how truly unique he was. But, as per my two overly long posts somewhere above or before, it is possible to construct a timeline from before Zappa and Beefheart, until modern times, that shows the development and continuation of US prog. It just takes the effort to put aside pre-conceived notions of what prog is. For some people that will be impossible. For me, it’s easy, as I already thought a lot of US prog was prog, and for me this has merely been an interesting exercise in looking backward and forward from some of the bands I like, to see their mutual influences and antecedents, and their own influence on those who followed. This has definitely been my favourite thread I’ve ever read on PA, so please don’t think I don’t appreciate it! I very much do! |
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SteveG
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Posted: March 27 2021 at 09:50 |
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Thanks nick, it's been mostly enjoyable for me too, except for the inane "Kansas is not prog" side discussions. Those types of diversions are rampant in many of these threads, but I digress. And truth be told, I learned a lot from both you and Bryan from this thread, which makes me happy as I came seeking answers and definitely got a few. And a chance to revist old favorites like Terry Riley and Annette Peacock, who I haven't listened to in ages. They're still wonderful all these years later. Good music never goes out of fashion.
 Edited by SteveG - March 27 2021 at 10:32 |
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moshkito
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Posted: March 30 2021 at 13:46 |
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Hi, I always like to think that in America, defining "progressive" is a big issue and problem, because it is like there are so many different "countries" within America, and each one does their own thing. Ex: Comparing the West Coast to the East Coast "progressive" will drive you nutz. Same thing with the early electronic thing, where people joked that in the East they were all "intellectual" and in the West they were too stoned to know what they were doing and more free form! Sadly, in NOT MAPPING out the American scene, we leave behind the "south" and the "midwest" that also had some very good things, but because they did not have that "ingrish" sound, it was not considered "progressive". |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 30 2021 at 14:20 |
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Yeah, the sheer size of the US means it is always a little silly to compare it with the UK at all. Whether in terms of music or covid or whatever. It makes far more sense to either compare the US with Europe, or to compare individual states or regions with the UK (or other European countries).
Even taking away the difficulty of defining just what US prog was/is, compared to the UK; just looking at something more generally agreed upon as jazz or punk differed wildly in sound between west and east coast scenes. A lot of what I described in my posts above as candidates for US prog would possibly be better described as East Coast prog, or even more specifically, New York prog. |
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SteveG
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Posted: March 30 2021 at 17:04 |
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I see it as more of an even east coast and west coast split. If you include the VU, they were big time in NY. Zappa and the early Mothers were California west coast. Many bands were on one coast or the other as that's where the music industry labels were based, along with the relevant underground scenes. And the hippies and freaks. Lol
Edited by SteveG - March 31 2021 at 04:06 |
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moshkito
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Posted: March 31 2021 at 10:35 |
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Hi, Another sub-genre that is impossible to find. I tried to find "Post-Rock" and someone's link gave me Transatlantic ... and right after its name it says "Symphonic" ... Oh well ... I give up. Not worth checking anything at PA since all the help is helpless!   Edited by moshkito - March 31 2021 at 10:36 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Nogbad_The_Bad
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Posted: March 31 2021 at 10:51 |
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There's a whole subgenre here on Post Rock why don't you start there with :- Godspeed You! Black Emperor Tortoise God Is An Astronaut Sigur Ros Mogwai Talk Talk Swans
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Ian
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Awesoreno
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Posted: March 31 2021 at 13:11 |
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Even then, there was (and maybe is) a split between the San Fransisco scene and the LA scene. Frank talks about it in his book. Every metro area is going to have it's idiosyncrasies I suppose.
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SteveG
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Posted: March 31 2021 at 13:57 |
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SteveG wrote:
