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Early British Prog vs American. Discuss.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote earlyprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 12:51
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile
It was a rhetorical question Paul, as it was in reference to other avant artists aside from Zappa and BH that are considered to be prog.

I'll give you a rhetorical answer then: I've never considered Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart to be prog artists and I don't regard Kansas as a Symphonic Prog band. Smile

Wow, that's some statement, rhetorically, do you really mean that? rhetorically....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 14:03
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I think it’s entirely plausible to do this, using Zappa and Beefheart as a starting point and working out from there.




Not a chronological starting point, obviously, but a conceptual starting point. Zappa particularly is, I think, almost inarguably American prog.


Me likey LOL

You responding to your own post LOL
This topic must be more intense than i thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 14:04
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile
It was a rhetorical question Paul, as it was in reference to other avant artists aside from Zappa and BH that are considered to be prog.


I'll give you a rhetorical answer then: I've never considered Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart to be prog artists and I don't regard Kansas as a Symphonic Prog band. Smile


Wow, that's some statement, rhetorically, do you really mean that? rhetorically....

yeah, that's Paul for you. Amazing, right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 14:10
Originally posted by Cboi Sandlin Cboi Sandlin wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


To flip the discussion back to the early British prog and proto prog bands, I think that the employment of a keyboardist was the springboard to more formal compositions, as these keyboardists were, generally, trained musicians and often had at least a rudimentary understanding of classical music and it's theories. As opposed to an American prog artist like Zappa who was a self taught guitarist, even though he could already read and write music. Same with Hendrix, but I don't believe that he was musically literate. Just an idea.  

yes good point, i think that put British prog far ahead of american because british people were far more into classical music than americans were, and definently more british people were classically trained. I suppose thats because british people have always been more fancy lolLOL.
I should have elaborated more in my post. The keyboardist/formal compositions thing is a no brainer. What I meant to say is that self taught musicians might be more inclined to improvise over a formally taught musician.

Edited by SteveG - March 26 2021 at 14:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cboi Sandlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 15:03
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Cboi Sandlin Cboi Sandlin wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


To flip the discussion back to the early British prog and proto prog bands, I think that the employment of a keyboardist was the springboard to more formal compositions, as these keyboardists were, generally, trained musicians and often had at least a rudimentary understanding of classical music and it's theories. As opposed to an American prog artist like Zappa who was a self taught guitarist, even though he could already read and write music. Same with Hendrix, but I don't believe that he was musically literate. Just an idea.  

yes good point, i think that put British prog far ahead of american because british people were far more into classical music than americans were, and definently more british people were classically trained. I suppose thats because british people have always been more fancy lolLOL.
I should have elaborated more in my post. The keyboardist/formal compositions thing is a no brainer. What I meant to say is that self taught musicians might be more inclined to improvise over a formally taught musician.

Yea and i think that's why american prog rock is more jazz influences whereas british prog has more classical inspiriations
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earl of Mar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 17:04
No discussion British prog I far far better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 17:27
You're never lived until you go avant/RIO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 17:40
90% of the people in this thread seem to be mostly concerned with whether or not Kansas is prog. Kind of tired and not actually relevant to the question that started the thread. SteveG I think you’ve engaged some of my points, so thanks for that. I’m not sensing much of a discussion otherwise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 17:44
If you’re going to say that Zappa isn’t prog then... what have you to contribute to this discussion? Ok, in 1977 Kansas did a song that sounded like English prog bands, and that would be relevant to the question that opened the thread how? That’s just an American band doing European-style prog.

The relevant point is, based on the question in OP, whence come the avant prog tendencies in American prog? Can we trace avant influences backwards from Zappa? And find other contemporary or later musicians who drew on the same influences? Are any of them more indisputably prog?


Edited by Crane - March 26 2021 at 17:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 17:52
To the point that jazz fusion is the American version of prog: interesting opinion. I disagree because it doesn’t account for the more prog-oriented (to my ears) Zappa and Beefheart. But I see how it’s tempting to view fusion as what happened *instead* of prog in America.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 17:55
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

If you’re going to say that Zappa isn’t prog then... what have you to contribute to this discussion? Ok, in 1977 Kansas did a song that sounded like English prog bands, and that would be relevant to the question that opened the thread how? That’s just an American band doing European-style prog.

The relevant point is, based on the question in OP, whence come the avant prog tendencies in American prog? Can we trace avant influences backwards from Zappa? And find other contemporary or later musicians who drew on the same influences? Are any of them more indisputably prog?


This is an offbeat topic for PA as this is mostly a site geared towards Symphonic prog, so I'm happy with the responses we got that actually relate to the topic of the thread. I'm no expert on Zappa and his influences, so I can't contribute much. And yes, this thread devolved into a prog/not prog thread concerning Kansas (which is a great way to distinguish someone's ignorance of this genre), so the thread has run its course. But it was good to blow some of these topics into the air instead of rehashing the usual stale topic of Symphonic prog.




Edited by SteveG - March 26 2021 at 18:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 18:25
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Well, I guess you've never been to a Dead concert.

Hi,

I happen to like the band A LOT ... but saying that they are "progressive" or do "fusion" ... I'm not sure that it fits, but when it comes to "improvisations" ... and SPECIALLY IN THE EARLY DAYS ... they really were probably second to none ... and I think a lot of Europeans listened to that ... and still did their thing.

The GD, is the one band I have a tremendous respect for ... they did it their way, including telling many record companies to take a hike. And they did it the way that scares most people ... sharing the tapes and people buying bootlegs! It created a "history" for the band, that I have not found in any other band the world over!

From a "musical perspective", I don't know how to explain the GD ... one could easily say that their start was always some sort of something that is a bit on the pop side, but they allowed their folks to also create and add a lot to the over all effect of the band.

Jerry's solo albums are an interesting example ... they could easily be considered "progressive", but I'm not sure that conversation would last very long here. The special on Bob Weir and his explanation of the GD was a really fine piece of work, but it never tried to "identify" or "define" what they were doing other than making sure they were together and doing it "right" for them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 18:33
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

...
The relevant point is, based on the question in OP, whence come the avant prog tendencies in American prog? Can we trace avant influences backwards from Zappa? And find other contemporary or later musicians who drew on the same influences? Are any of them more indisputably prog?

Hi,

hmmmm ... all of a sudden I hear THE DOORS ... and a few other bands ... and it's really hard to say what their influences were, other than their intellect and ability to "make movies" of many of their pieces of music that had, if we were to break it down, a lot of influences ... but in the end, their music was not about influences as such, though they did a few songs here and there for the radio, and many of them were ... a finger in one way or another!

IF we're going to "map out" ... anything that might be related to "early American Prog" ... then you can go back to The Electric Prunes and many other bands ... but we are being finicky and sometimes weird ... limiting Kansas to one song as progressive and the rest not worthy, is a little scary ... it might not be a full fledged progressive band, but it had a lot of nice things that were ... but they were "American" and we like the keyboard assaults, and the blistering guitar ... that we think "make" progressive, not something that ends up seeming like a really long song!


Edited by moshkito - March 26 2021 at 18:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cboi Sandlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 18:46
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

If you’re going to say that Zappa isn’t prog then... what have you to contribute to this discussion? Ok, in 1977 Kansas did a song that sounded like English prog bands, and that would be relevant to the question that opened the thread how? That’s just an American band doing European-style prog.

The relevant point is, based on the question in OP, whence come the avant prog tendencies in American prog? Can we trace avant influences backwards from Zappa? And find other contemporary or later musicians who drew on the same influences? Are any of them more indisputably prog?
Like I said before Starcastle is a great American prog band. They are prolly my favorite American prog band, except for maybe Tool if you would count them as prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 18:50
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


Well, I guess you've never been to a Dead concert.


Hi,

I happen to like the band A LOT ... but saying that they are "progressive" or do "fusion" ... I'm not sure that it fits, but when it comes to "improvisations" ... and SPECIALLY IN THE EARLY DAYS ... they really were probably second to none ... and I think a lot of Europeans listened to that ... and still did their thing.

The GD, is the one band I have a tremendous respect for ... they did it their way, including telling many record companies to take a hike. And they did it the way that scares most people ... sharing the tapes and people buying bootlegs! It created a "history" for the band, that I have not found in any other band the world over!

From a "musical perspective", I don't know how to explain the GD ... one could easily say that their start was always some sort of something that is a bit on the pop side, but they allowed their folks to also create and add a lot to the over all effect of the band.

Jerry's solo albums are an interesting example ... they could easily be considered "progressive", but I'm not sure that conversation would last very long here. The special on Bob Weir and his explanation of the GD was a really fine piece of work, but it never tried to "identify" or "define" what they were doing other than making sure they were together and doing it "right" for them. 
Well the thing with the Dead is that they don't revert back to s a set motif. Probably because they play so long that they forgot it what it was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 18:52
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

...
The relevant point is, based on the question in OP, whence come the avant prog tendencies in American prog? Can we trace avant influences backwards from Zappa? And find other contemporary or later musicians who drew on the same influences? Are any of them more indisputably prog?




[
hmmmm ... all of a sudden I hear THE DOORS ... and a few other bands ... and it's really hard to say what their influences were, other than their intellect and ability to "make movies" of many of their pieces of music that had, if we were to break it down, a lot of influences ... but in the end, their music was not about influences as such, though they did a few songs here and there for the radio, and many of them were ... a finger in one way or another!

IF we're going to "map out" ... anything that might be related to "early American Prog" ... then you can go back to The Electric Prunes and many other bands ... but we are being finicky and sometimes weird ... limiting Kansas to one song as progressive and the rest not worthy, is a little scary ... it might not be a full fledged progressive band, but it had a lot of nice things that were ... but they were "American" and we like the keyboard assaults, and the blistering guitar ... that we think "make" progressive, not something that ends up seeming like a really long song!

Well said Pedro and a good way to end the thread.   

Edited by SteveG - March 26 2021 at 18:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 20:25
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

The American avant wave seemed to come about independent of this development and therefore didn't also adhere to these rules. 

The other point I would make is Beefheart, Zappa, Riley, Buckley et al operated virtually as self contained islands whereas prog rock in Europe could legitimately be regarded as a 'scene' or a cluster.   

We’re in agreement that Zappa and Beefheart could be regarded as prog to some extent, yes? I’m pointing out that they didn’t arise out of nothing, they arose out of a tradition of mixing avant garde with rock. Zappa’s early albums are all about this. No, it wasn’t a formal group of musicians. But it was “in the air” in America, a lot of individuals were doing it, whom I’m trying to name.

And I don’t think it’s right to say that, e.g. Riley has nothing to do with prog because he doesn’t use odd time signatures. You’re holding him to the standard set out for European prog, which I’ve taken pains to point out is different from American prog.

What else should I hold it to?  There are points where it becomes like let's just throw PA wide open to all artists doing something progressive without being pure jazz/classical.  Ilayaraja is progressive and I bet you've never heard of him. But he is more progressive than the entire rank and file of second tier and beyond also rans of prog.  But that's not what matters.  It's ultimately a website devoted to prog.  If I wanted to, I could make a convincing argument for why Jeff Buckley's Mojo Pin is progressive.  It doesn't strictly follow verse chorus (there is a Hindustani tinged vocalese section after one of the choruses rather than leading right back to the riff).  On this website, even getting Metallica added to a prog-related category took a lot of fighting and that is even though Justice for All is clearly more progressive than most of what Nightwish or Within Temptation have done.  

So it doesn't work that way.  We have to draw certain boundaries just so we understand coherently what is prog.  It doesn't seem like Terry Riley is generally regarded as progressive rock nor Annette Peacock so I go with the consensus.  PA has sub genres like prog metal or neo prog added on BECAUSE they were generally regarded by the prog community as prog.  OK prog metal polarized opinions but over a period of time, people have come to accept the overlap. One doesn't see a similar overlap in this case.  

And it's hardly an insult to Riley or Peacock to say they are not 'prog'.  Would you feel insulted if I said Morricone isn't prog? But of course he did avant garde work.  And maybe you could stretch that slice of avant garde to say he was prog too if you wanted to but what purpose would that serve anyway. If it were up to me, I wouldn't have Miles Davis on the website but hey ho, that's another day, another debate.Beer 


Edited by rogerthat - March 26 2021 at 20:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 23:07
I wish I could say that Terry Riley and Annette Peacock, who are both listed in the PA discography, would be the definitive statement that both artists are indeed prog, but I can't. Both are classified as crossover prog, which makes no sense and does this discussion absolutely no good. How in the world they were thrown in with bands like Talk Talk is quite beyond me.



Edited by SteveG - March 26 2021 at 23:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 23:10
Avant/RIO is where they belong so far as PA classification goes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2021 at 23:15
Yes, I agree, and this type of misclassification makes my argument a damn lot harder. But at least they're here.
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