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Early British Prog vs American. Discuss.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 15:51
i love the VU, and much of what Reed and Cale released subsequently. They were a truly influential band, for sure. And definitely progressive in many ways, even if not often perceived as prog. They’re prog to me, but I completely get why others don’t agree, and therefore probably why they’re not listed here.

For a start, my favourite artist ever, Bowie, might never have headed off in the odd directions he did, had it not been for the VU.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 15:52
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

There is also an odd one out with Velvet Underground whos features very early on. WONDERFULL mix of US and UK influence within the band members origins and points of influence. With Nico joining inn on the debute one also got a German influence as well. So as an early band featuring an U.K originated member in John Cale of multi instrumentalist, art school, conservator education, core band unit from U.S and lyricis, beat poet influenced Lou Reed, and Christa Päffgen aka Nico.

I just mean to say that Velvet Underground ought to be brought into this very intriguing conversation
Unfortunately, this forward looking band containing John Cale is not listed in PA but they were greatly influential. No doubt about that.
John Cale is contained but never a fully controlled unit, a sharp musicaly eqiiped individual of severe tallent, Lou Reed whos words and mind envalluped New York and all its jazz and keen eyes on Edgar Rice Burroughs and hes friends writing, and Nico you got something completly new

Edited by Icarium - March 24 2021 at 15:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 15:57
[/QUOTE] I would definitely agree that the "arts" are not paramount in American education and even if it was, it would be Norman Rockwell over Picasso.[/QUOTE]

As a former college instructor in Humanities, which I describe as the history of the arts, I can say that many of my students were disappointed that there was so little about the United States. Abstract art of the 20th century was particularly difficult for them - they had no background which would help them understand what was going on. The only time I was successful in explaining why Picasso was so important was when I had access to a slide collection (this was before the internet) that showed how often he changed his style. None of his styles by themselves impressed the students, but the sheer creative vitality over the years did. This is somewhat akin to what Miles had achieved over his career. Of course, I had students who embraced it all, and understand modern and post-modern movements, but they were the minority.

As I see it, American rock music during the formative years of Prog was based on Blues, original rock 'n' roll, a little jazz, and folk from our side of the pond. The Brits were more versed in classical, bringing in the elements of rock and jazz into the mix. What we call Proto- and Prog- related were still heavily based on the Blues. I am writing of major trends here, and we can find exceptions to all of this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 16:07
I don't know, this categorization started in later years where people have this big need to put everything into shoe boxes with a nice pretty label and then stack it all on shelves.

I don't know about the US, nor really England since I never came across one while I lived there.  But in Germany early/mid seventies you had some night clubs in different cities.  We had one in Osnabrueck and I remember going to another in Muenster and in Duesseldorf so I would guess there were a few across the country.  These night clubs only played Heavy Music and you could smell the pot as you walked in. These places were visited by all us long haired folks.   I was a non smoker back then so it would always hit me immediately (my disclaimer).  Good job that I was a non smoker back then as every so often once every couple of months the police would just raid the places because of the illegality of the smoking.  Well the one in the city I lived in, I spend many a Friday or Saturday night there until daylight hit you and you stumbled home to sleep the rest of that day.

In the UK when you say Night Club it was all disco.  In Germany mostly too, except for these niche places I just mentioned.

In these clubs they played Heavy Music and only Heavy Music and us hairy folks (which we all were back then) sat there got up and danced very occasionally (as much as you can dance to this stuff lol, more like shaking your long hair about), but mostly chatted and got drunk and walked over to the DJ to requests the next songs.  Since Germany was back then filled with a lot garrisons you had Americans and Brits depending what city it was and Germans all there. Mostly getting drunk and chillin to the music.

Anyway digressing... but the point is NO ONE gave a hoot if it was German, or British or American or what Genre it would be classified under today, the only criteria was it better be heavy and hit the spot.  Besides if it wasn't the DJ shelves did not carry it anyway.

So everything was played and pretty much equally regardless of what country made it.  Of course the most popular stuff was long pieces not these 3 minutes songs.

Nick




Edited by Spaciousmind - March 24 2021 at 16:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 16:10
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, there were two prog bands named Icsarus. One was British. Only one was listed here but I don't know which one. If it's the British band they were avant/RIO, I think.


There was also a British Jazz-Rock band named Icarus who recorded a one-off album based on the Marvel comics superheroes before disappearing into the sun, and then to cause further confusion, there were two bands with the slightly different name of Ikarus - one was a Swiss Zeuhl!? band and the other was a Krautrock band.
No wonder why the name came so easily to me. They're were hundreds of them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 16:56
I think there might be something to say about the US as a nexus for 20th c. classical music. I think for those rock musicians who did see themselves as part of the classical tradition, it was as part of a branch which consciously viewed neoclassical and neoromantic styles as outdated. They were more likely to embrace atonalism, musique concrete, extended techniques, spectralism, etc.

What made me think of it is the related group of Fluxus artists, who certainly were working in the 20th c. classical orbit, and the later no wave scene, which had crossovers with the avant garde classical scene (Glenn Branca and Theoretical Girls jump to mind).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 23:43
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

I came in here to say Beefheart was already off the rails by 1969, and things were barely getting started lol.

Agreed on the fusion approach ala Davis. Well said! Clap

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 04:03
Todd Rundgren's Utopia. Love that album. It's way better and more proggy than anything Happy the Man and Kansas ever did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 04:59
Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

As a progger in UK and Germany, I can say that Zappa, Beefheart, Canned Heat, Mountain, Alice Cooper, Edgar & Johnny Winter, Allman Brothers, Ted Nugent, BTO, Blue Oyster, Creedence, Grand Funk and quite a few more all made their way into your collection and were played right alongside with your British and German stuff.

I don't think we ever bothered too much about distinct segregations back then.


Same thing in Canada, TBH. All these bands (and many more) found their way onto my shelves regardless of their proggyness or not.
I knew of Germany and France's prog, partly because I was haunting specialized import shops and some excellent second-hand/used record shops. BTW, the only major prog country that didn't find its way into my record stash was Italy, but that's because I didn't know about it, not because I ignored it.

As for the segregations, I think it came with the different chapels starting to hate or disdain each other in the later 70's I hate Floyd, Disco Sucks, Glam fags, Three-chord blues etc...

Originally posted by dr
 wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.


I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
btw Happy The Man came out in '73....and I consider them more proggy than Kansas.


Well even then, part of the jazz & prog fusion had also happened via Soft Machine and Nucleus (Canterbury in a wider sense) or Magma

Yup, in terms of "historical prog" (one could read this as "symphonic prog"), it evolved clearly from the UK and was aped very quickly in continental Europe . It seemed to take a longer time in Nortn Am (whether US or Canada). Sure there were "almost-pure prog" bands below & above the 49th parallel before 74, but it's not like they were hoarding airwaves or top 40 charts.

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


With all due respect Nick, there are 20 subgenres listed in PA, so I think the debates over as what is prog and what's not are over. If I had to take a guess, its because of the undying belief that any music without a mellotron and faux symphony is not early prog. A belief I believe is erroneous and detrimental. Regardless if three people state so, having possibly used that logic.


Well, when the site was created, PA wanted to be retrospective (dare I say even revisionist?) and added a whole bunch of other artistes that didn't fit the mould that the late 90's progheads had casted in aprorpriating that then-dirty four-letter word called "Prog".
Basically to a lot of "progheads", in the late 90's and early 00's, "Prog" was 70's prog, neo-prog and 90's progmetal (Canterbury stuff was tolerated, but scared many because of the "jazz thing").
FTM, that's what PA was before it was bought by M@X and Proglucky. Our two québécois bought it from a guy down in Florida, and it was pretty restrictive (Gibraltar - GEPR - was also much that way, at the time)

TBH, a lot of those genres were added to PA either as an afterthought or a form of revisionism. In 2006, you wouldn't believe the arguments because JR/F was added, though there was much less opposition (none if memory serrves) from the psych/space-prog creation. Hell PA even created Prog-related and Proto-prog to accomodate all these groups not falling in the restruictive carcans of "Prog".

Other genres were added from the break-up of the fourre-tout Art Rock, others added since (Math & Post rock), etc...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:24
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

As a progger in UK and Germany, I can say that Zappa, Beefheart, Canned Heat, Mountain, Alice Cooper, Edgar & Johnny Winter, Allman Brothers, Ted Nugent, BTO, Blue Oyster, Creedence, Grand Funk and quite a few more all made their way into your collection and were played right alongside with your British and German stuff.

I don't think we ever bothered too much about distinct segregations back then.


Same thing in Canada, TBH. All these bands (and many more) found their way onto my shelves regardless of their proggyness or not.
I knew of Germany and France's prog, partly because I was haunting specialized import shops and some excellent second-hand/used record shops. BTW, the only major prog country that didn't find its way into my record stash was Italy, but that's because I didn't know about it, not because I ignored it.

As for the segregations, I think it came with the different chapels starting to hate or disdain each other in the later 70's I hate Floyd, Disco Sucks, Glam fags, Three-chord blues etc...

Originally posted by dr
 wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.


I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
btw Happy The Man came out in '73....and I consider them more proggy than Kansas.


Well even then, part of the jazz & prog fusion had also happened via Soft Machine and Nucleus (Canterbury in a wider sense) or Magma

Yup, in terms of "historical prog" (one could read this as "symphonic prog"), it evolved clearly from the UK and was aped very quickly in continental Europe . It seemed to take a longer time in Nortn Am (whether US or Canada). Sure there were "almost-pure prog" bands below & above the 49th parallel before 74, but it's not like they were hoarding airwaves or top 40 charts.

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


With all due respect Nick, there are 20 subgenres listed in PA, so I think the debates over as what is prog and what's not are over. If I had to take a guess, its because of the undying belief that any music without a mellotron and faux symphony is not early prog. A belief I believe is erroneous and detrimental. Regardless if three people state so, having possibly used that logic.


Well, when the site was created, PA wanted to be retrospective (dare I say even revisionist?) and added a whole bunch of other artistes that didn't fit the mould that the late 90's progheads had casted in aprorpriating that then-dirty four-letter word called "Prog".
Basically to a lot of "progheads", in the late 90's and early 00's, "Prog" was 70's prog, neo-prog and 90's progmetal (Canterbury stuff was tolerated, but scared many because of the "jazz thing").
FTM, that's what PA was before it was bought by M@X and Proglucky. Our two québécois bought it from a guy down in Florida, and it was pretty restrictive (Gibraltar - GEPR - was also much that way, at the time)

TBH, a lot of those genres were added to PA either as an afterthought or a form of revisionism. In 2006, you wouldn't believe the arguments because JR/F was added, though there was much less opposition (none if memory serrves) from the psych/space-prog creation. Hell PA even created Prog-related and Proto-prog to accomodate all these groups not falling in the restruictive carcans of "Prog".

Other genres were added from the break-up of the fourre-tout Art Rock, others added since (Math & Post rock), etc...


As far as classifications, I still maintain that the arguments are over. To what degree an artist is prog will be always be argued, but in the case of avant garde experimentalism, no such arguments should exist. An artist beating a bass drum while gargling is just as avant garde and experimental as an artist creating soundscapes with an oscillator. What's argued is how listenable each artist is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:34
Following up on my last reply about the avant garde as more of an influence in the US: More artists who jump to mind:

Terry Riley
LaMonte Young’s Theatre of Eternal Music
Henry Flynt’s avant garde hillbilly music
Annette Peacock


Edited by Crane - March 25 2021 at 05:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:35

The Beat Goes On (Vanilla Fudge album) coverart.jpg

Vanilla Fudge-The Beat Goes On 1968.

 
Studio Album, released in 1968

Songs / Tracks Listing

1. Sketch (3:01)
- Phase 1:
2. Intro: The Beat Goes On (1:59)
3. Variations On A Theme By Mozart (6:59) :
a) Divertimento No. 13 IN F Major
b) Old Black Joe (Traditional)
c) Don't Fence Me In
d) 12th Street Rag
e) In The Mood
f) Hound Dog
g) I Want To Hold Your Hand
h) I Feel Fine
i) Day Tripper
j) She Loves You
- Phase 2:
4. The Beat Goes On (1:38)
5. Beethoven: Fur Elise/Moonlight Sonata (6:37)
6. The Beat Goes On (1:07)
7. The Beast Goes On (1:03)
- Phase 3:
8. Voices In Time - Neville Chamberlain, Winston Churchill, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, John F. Kennedy And Other Voices (8:17)
- Phase 4:
9. The Beat Goes On (1:05)
10. Merchant (9:52) :
a) The Game Is Over: Vince
b) The Game Is Over: Tim
c) The Game Is Over: Carmine
d) The Game Is Over: Mark
-
11. The Beat Goes On (2:23)

Total Time: 44:01

One of the less successful but high profile efforts to jump on the avant bandwagon was this multi era musical retrospective form Vanilla Fudge in 1968, with a bizarre tape collage throw in for good measure. Listening to a Sonny and Cher song before it morphed into a classical piece by Beethoven, all done with heavy rock instrumentation, is most distressing, but hey, it was the 60s.



Edited by SteveG - March 25 2021 at 05:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:37
^ I’ll have to check the years for the artists I mentioned

Edited by Crane - March 25 2021 at 05:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:49
Peacock’s ‘I’m the One,’ 1972
Riley’s ‘In C,’ 1968
Riley’s ‘Rainbow in Curved Air,’ 1969
Young’s Theatre of Eternal Music was active in the 60’s
Flynt’s ‘Raga Electric,’ recorded 1963-71
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:52
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Peacock’s ‘I’m the One,’ 1972
Riley’s ‘In C,’ 1968
Riley’s ‘Rainbow in Curved Air,’ 1969
Young’s Theatre of Eternal Music was active in the 60’s
Flynt’s ‘Raga Electric,’ recorded 1963-71
Omg, I haven't listened to Riley's "A Rainbow In Curved Air" in ages. It's stupendous! Thanks for reminding me. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:57
One of my favourite albums last year was a 2 disc version of In C. (Yes, two disc!)


(What I wrote about the album for TPA:

In C is, of course, the rather famous composition by Terry Riley that has likely never been played in the same way twice since its origin in 1964. A series of melodic fragments held together by “the pulse”, for an indefinite number of musicians to play. Riley suggests a group of 35, but here we have only David Harrow – and it works perfectly. In C is a minimalist piece after all, and it doesn’t get more minimal than being played by just one musician. The directions are fairly simple. Of the 53 phrases that make up C, any can be played (though they must be played in order), for an arbitrary length of time. Each player has control over which phrases they play, and for how long. In C thus has no set duration, and so can last for minutes or for hours.

I wasn’t entirely convinced I was going to enjoy listening to David Harrow’s In C in one go, as it effectively provides four different variations (two sides of a piece originally intended for 12” vinyl, a fast, and a slow version). But, just wow! Not only did I never get bored or tired of the music, but the final piece (the slow version) was the absolute highlight. Rather than lose interest, my attention grew toward the end of the album. I also particularly enjoyed the 12” Side B piece. It’s hard to describe how such a repetitive and patterned performance can be so affective, but rest assured it is. Given the slow version is 70-minutes long, it’s effectively an album in itself, and if it were the only performance offered, this release would still be well worth investing in. For me the additional 12” sides and fast version are merely icing on the cake. An absolute treat, and a great way to start Rattle’s Five-In-Five campaign! )


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:03
I think ‘In C’ is proto-prog in that it represents the opening of avant garde concepts to the possibility of their performance by rock musicians, in that ‘In C’ deliberately leaves undetermined its instrumentation. If I wanted to push this idea further I’d say ‘4’33”’ is an even earlier example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:14
Perhaps it partly comes down to speech and accents? 

To my ear, English, Irish, Welsh, and Scots accents seem more melodious than American accents. Maybe a lifetime of speaking melodic UK accents seeps into the music?  




Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 25 2021 at 06:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:23
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I think ‘In C’ is proto-prog in that it represents the opening of avant garde concepts to the possibility of their performance by rock musicians, in that ‘In C’ deliberately leaves undetermined its instrumentation. If I wanted to push this idea further I’d say ‘4’33”’ is an even earlier example.

If prog is an attitude not a genre, then In C and 4’33” are both prog compositions. Prog AF! 🤘🏻

Rattle (which released David Harrow’s In C last year) is a jazz and classical label, but much of the music is very progressive even if people might not think of it as prog. They’ve released so much wonderful music over the years, and much of it is prog in my eyes (or, rather, ears).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:27
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Same thing in Canada, TBH. All these bands (and many more) found their way onto my shelves regardless of their proggyness or not.
I knew of Germany and France's prog, partly because I was haunting specialized import shops and some excellent second-hand/used record shops. BTW, the only major prog country that didn't find its way into my record stash was Italy, but that's because I didn't know about it, not because I ignored it.

As for the segregations, I think it came with the different chapels starting to hate or disdain each other in the later 70's I hate Floyd, Disco Sucks, Glam fags, Three-chord blues etc...

The problem is you can't ever discuss these artists and what was good about them without having to feel worried about being inappropriate, as you worry about someone jumping on you stating this don't fit here it belongs someplace else.  So what made these artist great and why did proggers listen to them as well?

It's a classic misrepresentation of true history as you see all the time in books, tv and internet.

If you wish to separate the US with Europe then perhaps the difference was as simple as heavy guitar centered progressiveness versus less heavy guitar centered progressiveness, it's probably not any more complicated than that.

Nick
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