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Early British Prog vs American. Discuss. |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: March 24 2021 at 05:36 |
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I've always been fascinted the way the two subgenres differed with British prog going in a formal symphonic direction ala King Crimson, and American going in an avant garde direction ala Zappa and Beefheart. But why? Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 05:39 |
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Crane ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 08 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 411 |
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The American spirit is more iconoclastic and revolutionary, for better or worse. Hence, there wasn’t a strong impulse to draw on older traditions in American music. There was rather an impulse to be individualistic for individualism’s sake.
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Psychedelic Paul ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 42815 |
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I didn't know there was such a thing as American prog until I "discovered" Kansas about ten years ago.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21221 |
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This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Spaciousmind ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: September 07 2020 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 724 |
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As a progger in UK and Germany, I can say that Zappa, Beefheart, Canned Heat, Mountain, Alice Cooper, Edgar & Johnny Winter, Allman Brothers, Ted Nugent, BTO, Blue Oyster, Creedence, Grand Funk and quite a few more all made their way into your collection and were played right alongside with your British and German stuff.
I don't think we ever bothered too much about distinct segregations back then.
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Manuel ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13481 |
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I think the main reason is cultural. The influences in Europe seem, at least to me, to be more from a classic tradition that expands generations. In America, the top industrial country of that era, things were on a different platform.
Edited by Manuel - March 24 2021 at 09:03 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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dr wu23 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20649 |
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I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se. btw Happy The Man came out in '73....and I consider them more proggy than Kansas.
Edited by dr wu23 - March 24 2021 at 08:45 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Have to agree with you. Regardless of whether Zappa and Beefheart were around at the same time as the early British prog movement, they were never part of an equivalent early US prog movement. There was an early US prog movement, but it began a few years later, and that is perhaps a better point of comparison and contrast? 🤷🏻♂️ |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Oh, this is fun. Does a few disparate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the disparate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain.
Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 10:26 |
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Nogbad_The_Bad ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 21221 |
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If nothing else you've prompted me to check out The United States Of America.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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dr wu23 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20649 |
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Er...I think you meant disparate.... ![]() but at any rate, were those groups you cited attempting early prog rock or just also being different ? This whole thing about early prog again gets very murky.
Edited by dr wu23 - March 24 2021 at 10:19 |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17965 |
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Hi, I always thought that a lot of it was the American Educational System ... the "arts" in America, simply does not have the incredible history that Europe has had for 500 years ... it's like American "arts" are nearly non-existent ... and were intentionally dropped out. I suppose that in Literature, is the one area that survived very well going back past 200 years, and it has only been in the past 50 years that American Literature has been ignored due to the media fame about selling and such ... pulp garbage has won out since the media is owned by the same people posting the "results" of the sales! I think, that in the end, this will end up being 2 completely different things ... it's really hard to compare some of the American Spirit (let's say Miles) ... to what the English did, which had a lot of "individuality", however, it was very clearly setup within a compositional design and setup ... and always fell into the usual rock thing of the opening theme returning in some form ... I have to listen to some of the Americans from the 50's that became huge in the 60's, but I don't remember them coming up with a "song" for mat, and specially the jazz at that time, and even a lot of the rock stuff out of SF. It wasn't about the "song" or the "composition" ... it was about the feel and the music ... As Jim says ... when the music is over ... and you know that has to be the feel ... or its not worth discussing. FZ, is another story. I think that him having started as a bit of a satire, but being intelligent enough to recognize and learn music quickly, he was capable and able to do "more" with his material ... but no one says that there was "great music" in his first few albums ... later, there are so many albums that it's hard to determine. I consider FZ an anomaly ... in American music ... and STILL IS ... his work is not taken seriously except a few albums by (obviously!!!) rock fans!
Edited by moshkito - March 24 2021 at 10:24 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 10:27 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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I guess it depends what you think is disparate? It’s all subjective, and all depends on what measure you are judging how disparate or not either of the two scenes were. But I think there was an early US prog movement, that simply occurred a little later than the UK prog movement. The US prog movement perhaps doesn’t appear as much of a movement, purely because the progressive rock scene (for all that it was appreciated overseas), was a mainly Europe and especially British (and British Commonwealth) phenomenon. There are a number of reasons that have been given for why there was not as overt a movement in the US. Geographically, the smaller area of the UK allowed a lot more cross-pollination and appreciation, while the US bands pretty much remained in their own pockets. US musicians also tended to have a blues background, while Europeans were often more likely to be influenced by classical music. This can even be seen in the pre/proto prog of psychedelic music. There is often a distinct difference in sound and influence between UK and US psychedelia. The music industries were also quite different within the UK and US. Regardless, I think there is a generally agreed upon (but by no means definite or inarguable) early Uk prog movement (from around 1969 to 1973?). The equivalent in the US is more from, say 1973-1977, with bands like Dixie Dregs, Happy the Man, Journey, Kansas, Starcastle, Styx, etc. You could call them disparate, but I’m not convinced they’re any more disparate than the big six of UK prog? 🤷🏻♂️ I don’t think there is really much crossover between the early UK and US prog scenes, with the latter more or less taking off once the former had already peaked. For the record, the early NZ prog scene took place around the same time as the early US prog scene, but had a sound far more similar to the early UK prog scene! 😜 |
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dr wu23 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20649 |
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I'm on the same page for the most part but since when have you or I ever agreed with all the categories and bands here? ![]() On the 'early prog style'...maybe the cool US bands were more influenced by blues rock and west coast styles and the Brit bands by classical music and European sounds....? ( I noticed nick said basically the same thing above.....)
![]() Edited by dr wu23 - March 24 2021 at 11:07 |
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