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Icarium View Drop Down
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

The Shadows' influence was primarily in the UK (except perhaps for the Violent Femmes, who literally stole the entire "Little B" song for "Blister in the Sun"). Dylan, however, was not only influential in the States, but massive as well in Britain (directly influenced The Beatles, Donovan, David Bowie and Fairport Convention, for instance).
the Shadows was very influentual in Norway, most Nor guitarist in the 60s devrloped so called Shadowsband, it became a wierd phenomena that defined late 60s norwegian pop charts of popular bands, majority of those were quite voulentary labeld by the players themselvs Apache-bands.

Edited by Icarium - March 21 2021 at 18:03
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I guess its all about which part of the World you come from.  Since I was born in Germany and only about 4.1/2 before my parents moved to the UK when I was 8, its a certainty when either of the two songs came out that I would not have not known either song.   Yet my 10 year older brother played Cliff Richards and The Shadows and Elvis Pressley continuously.  So pretty sure in 1962 the Shadows who have been popular since the mid/late 50s were much better known than Dylan at least across the whole of Europe and the British Commonwealth which encompassed at that time around 1/3rd of the World Population, back in March of 1962 and over the following few years into the mid late 60s.
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Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

I guess its all about which part of the World you come from.  Since I was born in Germany and only about 4.1/2 before my parents moved to the UK when I was 8, its a certainty when either of the two songs came out that I would not have not known either song.   Yet my 10 year older brother played Cliff Richards and The Shadows and Elvis Pressley continuously.  So pretty sure in 1962 the Shadows who have been popular since the mid/late 50s were much better known than Dylan at least across the whole of Europe and the British Commonwealth which encompassed at that time around 1/3rd of the World Population, back in March of 1962 and over the following few years into the mid late 60s.

Considering that Dylan didn't even release his first album until 1962, it still went to #13 in the UK. His second album The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan went to #1 in the UK in 1963 (and ten straight albums after his debut were in the top ten in the UK, six of those were #1). As a matter of fact, Bob Dylan has had more top ten albums and #1 albums in the UK than he had in the States.

The Shadows had #1 albums in the UK in 1961 and 1962, after which they started to tail off. By 1967, they had dropped out of of the top 20 in the UK. So in 1962, perhaps. Afterwards, not a chance in hell.
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

For me there is nothing special about either track as far as influencing future prog folk rock ..and I prefer The Animals version of Rising Sun. And tbh I never even thought of that track as being 'folk rock'  when The Animals did it.

This right here.

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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

Steve Howe has said and you can hear hes influenced by the Shadows, Hank Marvin and Cliff Richrds.

Steve Hackett was a Shadows fan too. There are lots of their songs that sound more like early progressive rock than the one that was posted, although it is a good song in its own right. Steve Howe has a lot of Chet Atkins in his playing.

Steve Howe has also said he is heavily influenced by Bob Dylan. Who hasn't been influenced by Bob Dylan? The problem with Dylan is that he's not always the best executioner of his own work.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

I guess its all about which part of the World you come from.  Since I was born in Germany and only about 4.1/2 before my parents moved to the UK when I was 8, its a certainty when either of the two songs came out that I would not have not known either song.   Yet my 10 year older brother played Cliff Richards and The Shadows and Elvis Pressley continuously.  So pretty sure in 1962 the Shadows who have been popular since the mid/late 50s were much better known than Dylan at least across the whole of Europe and the British Commonwealth which encompassed at that time around 1/3rd of the World Population, back in March of 1962 and over the following few years into the mid late 60s.

Considering that Dylan didn't even release his first album until 1962, it still went to #13 in the UK. His second album The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan went to #1 in the UK in 1963 (and ten straight albums after his debut were in the top ten in the UK, six of those were #1). As a matter of fact, Bob Dylan has had more top ten albums and #1 albums in the UK than he had in the States.

The Shadows had #1 albums in the UK in 1961 and 1962, after which they started to tail off. By 1967, they had dropped out of of the top 20 in the UK. So in 1962, perhaps. Afterwards, not a chance in hell.
Didn't The Shadows fall away so badly that when The Beatles went to audition at DECCA they were rejected by the label because the record producer at the time said that guitar music was dead?
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Originally posted by iluvmarillion iluvmarillion wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

I guess its all about which part of the World you come from.  Since I was born in Germany and only about 4.1/2 before my parents moved to the UK when I was 8, its a certainty when either of the two songs came out that I would not have not known either song.   Yet my 10 year older brother played Cliff Richards and The Shadows and Elvis Pressley continuously.  So pretty sure in 1962 the Shadows who have been popular since the mid/late 50s were much better known than Dylan at least across the whole of Europe and the British Commonwealth which encompassed at that time around 1/3rd of the World Population, back in March of 1962 and over the following few years into the mid late 60s.

Considering that Dylan didn't even release his first album until 1962, it still went to #13 in the UK. His second album The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan went to #1 in the UK in 1963 (and ten straight albums after his debut were in the top ten in the UK, six of those were #1). As a matter of fact, Bob Dylan has had more top ten albums and #1 albums in the UK than he had in the States.

The Shadows had #1 albums in the UK in 1961 and 1962, after which they started to tail off. By 1967, they had dropped out of of the top 20 in the UK. So in 1962, perhaps. Afterwards, not a chance in hell.
Didn't The Shadows fall away so badly that when The Beatles went to audition at DECCA they were rejected by the label because the record producer at the time said that guitar music was dead?

I would not have started the post with Dylan and Shadows if I did not consider both instruments of change and of course The Beatles replaced The Shadows, that's life and to quote Dylan 'The Times They Are A‐Changin'  It just happened to be that that in 1962 you had The Shadows at the top of the world and a newcomer in Dylan starting his career.  And of course the Beatles changed everything again in 1963.

If you are talking about irrelevancy then you could also say that Prog became irrelevant after 1974.  But I would take offense to that because I enjoy it as much today as I did in the early70s.

Dylan however at least in the UK took a couple of years before he really became of interest to the masses it started in the summer of 1964 and therefore his influence to change in music started after the Shadows in the UK and most probably in Europe as well.  I don't know this for America and trust your opinions in that.

I mean its a simple tracking of facts to be able to see that.  Just take a look at the NME official album chart website for Top 20 albums week by week in the UK.

This is Dylan's first impact to the UK album charts:

No Bob Dylan albums as far as I can tell charted in the UK top 20 before the below:

THE FREE WHEELIN' BOB DYLAN
July 5th, 1964 - 20
July 13th, 1964 - 13
July 19th, 1964 - 17
July 26th, 1964 - Out of top 20
Aug 2, 1964 - 16 Reentered
Sept 7, 1964 - 20 Reentered
October 4, 1964 20 Reentered
October 11, 1964 20 Reentered
October 18, 1964 19
October 25, 1964 14
November 1, 1964 11
November 8, 1964 11
November 15, 1964 12
November 22, 1964 16
November 29, 1964 14

Another Side of Bob Dylan
November 15, 1964 14
November 22, 1964 12
November 29, 1964 12
December 5, 1964 20

The Times They Are A-Changing
November 15, 1964 20
November 22, 1964 15

Coincidentally here are the Animals in 1964 with their The Animals album that of course includes House of the Rising sun:
November 8, 1964 14
November 15, 1964 8
November 22, 1964 7
November 29, 1964 6
December 5, 1964 7
December 12, 1964 8
December 20, 1964 10
December 27, 1964 10

House of the Rising Sun by the Animals was voted Song of the Year in 1964 by NME.  So Dylan was a catalyst for the Animals and in return it seemed that The Animals with their version of House of the Rising Sun seemed to also help create a bigger interest in Dylan.  A kind of symbiotic relationship between the two in 1964.

After December 5th 1964 all the Dylan albums drop off and all three of the albums return in a big way around March of 1965 with Dylan then becoming dominant with his number 1's.

As for the Shadows they still peaked at #2 for a brief time in 1964 and remained in the top 10 for around a dozen weeks and in the top 20 albums for 23 weeks.  But of course the Beatles dominated with Please Please Me.

You have to appreciate the artists and the times they played in order to fully appreciate what happens afterwards.  If someone were to take the time and watch The Shadows Final Tour DVD they would also understand how good they were as a Band.  They were all strong top level musicians in their own right.

Nick



Edited by Spaciousmind - March 24 2021 at 13:18
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It's fairly well known that The Shadows were a massive influence on aspiring guitarists of that time, including The Beatles. I suspect they sound pretty tame nowadays but I doubt that there's many guitarists that were around at the time who weren't influenced by them.
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Eric Burdon's vocal on the Animals House of the Rising Sun (a song I've never really liked) is nevertheless, hugely impressive and occupies that same elliptic orbit traversed by John Fogerty, Chris Farlowe, John Hiatt, Steve Winwood, Van Morrison, Glenn Hughes and Gary Brooker i.e. white men who sing like black men. Dylan's version is pedestrian by comparison (on the cusp of jaywalking frankly) Not sure why Sir Harry Webb has been referenced on a Prog Rock music forum (apart from a little trolling mischiefWink) but the Dark Elf is correct that the Violent Femmes song 'Blister in the Sun' is based on the same riff as 'Little B'. Argent did reference Cliff in 'God gave Rock'n'Roll To You' but that might be deemed simpatico 'friendly fire'


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 22 2021 at 08:23
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Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Originally posted by iluvmarillion iluvmarillion wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

I guess its all about which part of the World you come from.  Since I was born in Germany and only about 4.1/2 before my parents moved to the UK when I was 8, its a certainty when either of the two songs came out that I would not have not known either song.   Yet my 10 year older brother played Cliff Richards and The Shadows and Elvis Pressley continuously.  So pretty sure in 1962 the Shadows who have been popular since the mid/late 50s were much better known than Dylan at least across the whole of Europe and the British Commonwealth which encompassed at that time around 1/3rd of the World Population, back in March of 1962 and over the following few years into the mid late 60s.

Considering that Dylan didn't even release his first album until 1962, it still went to #13 in the UK. His second album The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan went to #1 in the UK in 1963 (and ten straight albums after his debut were in the top ten in the UK, six of those were #1). As a matter of fact, Bob Dylan has had more top ten albums and #1 albums in the UK than he had in the States.

The Shadows had #1 albums in the UK in 1961 and 1962, after which they started to tail off. By 1967, they had dropped out of of the top 20 in the UK. So in 1962, perhaps. Afterwards, not a chance in hell.
Didn't The Shadows fall away so badly that when The Beatles went to audition at DECCA they were rejected by the label because the record producer at the time said that guitar music was dead?

I would not have started the post with Dylan and Shadows if I did not consider both instruments of change and of course The Beatles replaced The Shadows, that's life and to quote Dylan 'The Times They Are A‐Changin'  It just happened to be that that in 1962 you had The Shadows at the top of the world and a newcomer in Dylan starting his career.  And of course the Beatles changed everything again in 1963.

I am going off the numbers supplied by BPI and the Official Chart Company:

https://www.officialcharts.com/artist/28513/bob-dylan/

But of course, release dates in the States did not coincide with release dates in the UK (and vice versa, see The Beatles, for instance). Upon investigation, the sources I was using list Free Wheelin' as going to #1 the week of 5-23-64, so I will give a nod to your recollection.

Needless to say, it was the Freewheelin' With Bob Dylan that gave his Bobness international acclaim (again, not just in the UK like the Shadows):

The Beatles learned about Dylan while in France (which would have been January, 1964). When the Beatles were first given the album by a French DJ, they could listen to little else. “For three weeks in Paris, we didn’t stop playing it,” said John Lennon. “We all went potty about Dylan.”

Robert Plant suggested he would not have become a singer had he not heard "Masters of War": “His music referenced Woody Guthrie, Richard and Mimi Farina, Reverend Gary Davis, Dave Van Ronk and all these great American artists I knew nothing about. He was absorbing the details of America and bringing it out without any reservation at all, and ignited a social conscience that is spectacular.”

Jimmy Page wrote: "In May 1965 I experienced the genius of Bob at the Albert Hall. He accompanied himself on acoustic guitar and cascaded images and words from such songs as It’s Alright, Ma (I’m Only Bleeding) and She Belongs To Me to a mesmerised audience. It was life changing.⁣"

Pete Townshend recalls: “When I started to work on ‘My Generation’, I started to work on a Mose Allison/Bob Dylan hybrid of a talking folk song y’know. ‘People try to put us down’,” Townshend sings before adding, “That’s a bit Mose and a bit Dylan. You can take any song of his [Dylan] and find something in it that’s pertinent to today.”

So yes, you were right about Dylan's influence starting later than The Shadows, but I would suggest Dylan's socially-driven lyrics and compositional style rewrote the entire length and breadth of how rock/pop songs could be presented. And by 1964-65, it profoundly affected prominent Brit musicians just as much as bands in the States (The Byrds, Hendrix, etc.).

Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

If you are talking about irrelevancy then you could also say that Prog became irrelevant after 1974.  But I would take offense to that because I enjoy it as much today as I did in the early70s.

I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.
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Hendrix wasn't influenced by the Shadows and that's the benchmark. Dylan and the Blues? Oh yeah.
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Another artist that comes to mind for me is Dave Brubeck, particularly something like the first part of Blue Rondo a la Turk.
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Eric Burdon's vocal on the Animals House of the Rising Sun (a song I've never really liked) is nevertheless, hugely impressive and occupies that same elliptic orbit traversed by John Fogerty, Chris Farlowe, John Hiatt, Steve Winwood, Van Morrison, Glenn Hughes and Gary Brooker i.e. white men who sing like black men. Dylan's version is pedestrian by comparison (on the cusp of jaywalking frankly) Not sure why Sir Harry Webb has been referenced on a Prog Rock music forum (apart from a little trolling mischiefWink) but the Dark Elf is correct that the Violent Femmes song 'Blister in the Sun' is based on the same riff as 'Little B'. Argent did reference Cliff in 'God gave Rock'n'Roll To You' but that might be deemed simpatico 'friendly fire'

I think you may have missed one :)  Steve Marriott!

Nick
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

So yes, you were right about Dylan's influence starting later than The Shadows, but I would suggest Dylan's socially-driven lyrics and compositional style rewrote the entire length and breadth of how rock/pop songs could be presented. And by 1964-65, it profoundly affected prominent Brit musicians just as much as bands in the States (The Byrds, Hendrix, etc.).

I don't disagree with you!
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Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Another artist that comes to mind for me is Dave Brubeck, particularly something like the first part of Blue Rondo a la Turk.

I don't have anything from Dave Brubeck, perhaps you can recommend something.  I am just listening to Kenny Burrell & John Coltrane from 1962, I am quite enjoying it.

In truth, for the British scene the music that shaped what was to come happened before 1962 and it's all pretty much influenced by Jazz and Blues and I would suspect it's more as a result from accessibility from Music Clubs and venues as the vast majority of the people just did not have the money back then for any extravagant imported collections from the USA, unless it was the mass produced cheap imported Rock n Roll.  Which still would have been pricey and non essential for life.  It was still a major treat to get a fresh orange from a market store.

I think something that kind of makes me realize this is some interesting reading if you take a read on the history of the Marquee Club in London.

This is referencing 1959:

"In those days owning a blues vinyl was a privilege that not many teenagers could afford and would provide them with an automatic credit for becoming popular, picking up girls and even getting admited in a band. This small group of early blues fans who would visit the few record shops regularly in London that were importing this "rare stuff", such as HMV in New Oxford St and Dobell's in Charing Cross, included upcoming music talents such as Eric Clapton, John Mayall, Jimmy Page and Keith Richards."


Also if you go to the "Calendar of Gigs" section starting in 1963 you will quickly see who played there and what influenced them which primarily is Blues and Jazz artists from America combined with the local UK interpretations.  Sure the Shadows might have influenced guitarists and drummers etc or Dillan to add Folk Rock to the equation. Neither of these I would say inspired the above mentioned greats who in turn combined had a much greater impact to what eventually developed into psychedelia and progressive rock.

You really all should read this interesting website and all its pages.


More than any artist I would say that its clubs like the Marquee that shaped the 60s revolution of British music.

PS.. I guess what I am also saying is that the above mentioned plus the others listed at playing at the Marquee Club also inspired each other from what they are seeing on stage and from what they are hearing of each other when they played on the stage at these clubs, most often back to back in a night's performance.

Nick





Edited by Spaciousmind - March 23 2021 at 06:17
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1962?

The Shadows had a lot of great stuff that year: Wonderful Land, Guitar Tango and Perfidia.

Other great stuff from the R&D department of proto-prog that year (part 1):
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Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

1962?

The Shadows had a lot of great stuff that year: Wonderful Land, Guitar Tango and Perfidia.

Other great stuff from the R&D department of proto-prog that year (part 1):


Thanks for the links forgot about Booker T, the other two did not know and are appreciated by me.  Btw... if you want to go a year earlier then try Nivram from the Shadows.... nice and Jazzy or See you in my Drums.

Nick


Edited by Spaciousmind - March 23 2021 at 15:52
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Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:


Sure the Shadows might have influenced guitarists and drummers etc or Dillan to add Folk Rock to the equation. Neither of these I would say inspired the above mentioned greats who in turn combined had a much greater impact to what eventually developed into psychedelia and progressive rock.

Well it seems I assumed wrongly when I wrote this earlier.  Will have to make a note to myself to research further before making future statements because I just read this at the bottom of The Shadows Wiki page:


The Shadows have been cited as a major influence on many guitarists, including Brian May, Eric Clapton, Mark Knopfler, Andy Summers, Ritchie Blackmore, David Gilmour, and Tony Iommi. A tribute album, Twang! A Tribute to Hank Marvin & the Shadows , in October 1996 featured Blackmore, Iommi, Peter Green, Randy Bachman, Neil Young, Mark Knopfler, Peter Frampton and others playing Shadows hits. The early set of Queen (who played their first gig on 27 June 1970 with Freddie Mercury, Roger Taylor and Brian May) included a cover of Cliff and the Shadows' "Please Don't Tease"

Well there you go, you can't have bigger names than this.  They don't exist in the Rock or Prog world.

Well if you read even further down at the Wiki page you will see that ALL of Yugoslav rock was founded around the Shadows, apparently even the Beatles were not as popular over there.

So the moral of the story is that we assume too much in our English speaking world about other countries likes and dislikes.  I certainly did in my earlier quote.

Nick
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Jan Akkerman of Focus is another guitarist who I think sounds like he has a bit of a Shadows influence when you listen to tracks like Focus II and Tommy. On a separate note I've always thought this was a pretty heavy sounding track for 1965:
"And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!"

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I would say that inbetween the lyricisme of Dylan and instrumental focus of the Shadows, one also got the vocal harmonies of the Everly Brothers, the freedom of jazz and the rule breaking mentality of contemporary classical music.

Edited by Icarium - March 24 2021 at 05:36
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