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Spaciousmind View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 21 2021 at 12:28
I know roots of Progressive Rock has been discussed to death here, so I am not going there.  But I do want to ask about two songs from 1962 and your opinions of these two songs and the impact they may have had to that generation of 1962 listeners and musicians, inviting them, almost challenging them to explore new directions for their music.

The first song is from Bob Dylan from his self titled album that came out in March 1962, singing House of the Rising Sun, an old blues song that dates back to the 1920 for blues and if you research it, may even go back as far as the 16th century as a folk ballad.



The second song of course completely different is from The Shadows and for that time period Rock N Roll, that was played live in the same month March 1962 called Little B.  Which still even for today's ears I think remains an amazing drum solo.  At that time the Shadows were considered by many as the best band in the world and this must have most likely knocked the socks off a live audience.  I tend to agree that the Shadows must have sounded as the World's best at that time when you add Hank Marvin and Company to this kind of drumming.



Anyway your thoughts about these two songs from almost 60 years ago, were these two songs big influencers to future drummers, musicians, singers, writers yes or no?

For the year 1962 or earlier what else would you add or consider as game changers?

Nick
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I think they did influence some of the artists of the time, and added to the stream of influences that eventually gave birth to progessive rock. 
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For me there is nothing special about either track as far as influencing future prog folk rock ..and I prefer The Animals version of Rising Sun. And tbh I never even thought of that track as being 'folk rock'  when The Animals did it.
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

For me there is nothing special about either track as far as influencing future prog folk rock ..and I prefer The Animals version of Rising Sun. And tbh I never even thought of that track as being 'folk rock'  when The Animals did it.

No one invents change its a progression of ideas that form from visuals, words, smells and sounds that surround you, that touch and influence you.  My questions is more around what is the catalyst for change in music and I do think these two songs, invited change at that time.

As for the Animals version again not exactly original as a song but familiar to the world as a result of its predecessors.  They were obviously influenced, and possibly the Animals version may never have come about with out the Dylan version.

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Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

As for the Animals version again not exactly original as a song but familiar to the world as a result of its predecessors.  They were obviously influenced, and possibly the Animals version may never have come about with out the Dylan version.

Swings and roundabouts. The Animals’ version certainly wouldn’t have existed, or at the very least not in the form it took, without Dylan’s version. Their guitarist freely admitted he took the chords from Dylan’s version, so it was never any secret that Dylan’s version was a major influence for the Animals’ version. But, supposedly, it was then the Animals’ version which led Dylan to go electric. I don’t know how true that is, but I’ve heard it said often enough, and I haven’t heard of Dylan denying it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

As for the Animals’ version being folk, it’s very often said to be the first folk rock song. Whether or not that is the case is somewhat irrelevant, so much as the point that as rock as it was compared with previous versions of the classic folk song, it was still considered folk.

For the record my favourite versions of the song are by the Animals and Nina Simone. So while I will happily acknowledge that without Dylan’s version, the Animals’ version might not have existed, I still find the Animals’ version far more enjoyable.

Incidentally, Nina Simone performed House of the Rising Sun on her “At The Village Gate” live album, which was released in....1962!





Edited by nick_h_nz - March 21 2021 at 13:49
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

As for the Animals version again not exactly original as a song but familiar to the world as a result of its predecessors.  They were obviously influenced, and possibly the Animals version may never have come about with out the Dylan version.

Swings and roundabouts. The Animals’ version certainly wouldn’t have existed, or at the very least not in the form it took, without Dylan’s version. Their guitarist freely admitted he took the chords from Dylan’s version, so it was never any secret that Dylan’s version was a major influence for the Animals’ version. But, supposedly, it was then the Animals’ version which led Dylan to go electric. I don’t know how true that is, but I’ve heard it said often enough, and I haven’t heard of Dylan denying it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

As for the Animals’ version being folk, it’s very often said to be the first folk rock song. Whether or not that is the case is somewhat irrelevant, so much as the point that as rock as it was compared with previous versions of the classic folk song, it was still considered folk.

For the record my favourite versions of the song are by the Animals and Nina Simone. So while I will happily acknowledge that without Dylan’s version, the Animals’ version might not have existed, I still find the Animals’ version far more enjoyable.



I also like the Animals version much more than the Dylan version.  In fact I like a couple of the 50s Blues/Folk versions better than the Dylan version :)  Generally speaking, I doubt that any of us would be here in a Prog forum if we did not like the Animals version more. Wink


Edited by Spaciousmind - March 21 2021 at 14:02
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Steve Howe has said and you can hear hes influenced by the Shadows, Hank Marvin and Cliff Richrds.

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Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

I also like the Animals version much more than the Dylan version.  If fact I like a couple of the 50s Blues/Folk versions better than the Dylan version :)  Generally speaking, I doubt that any of us would be here in a Prog forum if we did not like the Animals version more. Wink

For sure! Leadbelly, for one, did a great version.
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Ooooops I almost forgot about another 1962 song from December of that year.  Telstar by the Tornados.  Could well be an influencer to the birth of symphonic prog / electronic prog.  I suspect they may have also been influenced by the Shadows :)



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Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

For me there is nothing special about either track as far as influencing future prog folk rock ..and I prefer The Animals version of Rising Sun. And tbh I never even thought of that track as being 'folk rock'  when The Animals did it.

No one invents change its a progression of ideas that form from visuals, words, smells and sounds that surround you, that touch and influence you.  My questions is more around what is the catalyst for change in music and I do think these two songs, invited change at that time.

As for the Animals version again not exactly original as a song but familiar to the world as a result of its predecessors.  They were obviously influenced, and possibly the Animals version may never have come about with out the Dylan version.

Nick

It is indeed a 'progression' of ideas but I really don't know how much either of these things influenced later music and or 'prog rock'. Certainly as pointed out the Animals borrowed from the Dylan version for their own and some consider their track folk rock and they might not have recorded it without hearing Dylan...again not sure how influential that track was in the future of things.
At any rate you said you were not interested in exploring the origins of prog folk yet you put your thread in the prog forum and not general music....  Stern Smile


Edited by dr wu23 - March 21 2021 at 15:15
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

It is indeed a 'progression' of ideas but I really don't know how much either of these things infljuenced later music and or 'prog rock'. Certainly as pointed out the Animals borrowed from the Dylan version for their own and some consider their track folk rock and they might not have recorded it without hearing Dylan...again not sure how influential that track was in the future of things.
At any rate you said you were not interested in exploring the origins of prog folk yet you put your thread in the prog forum and not general music....  Stern Smile

My bad, for placing it here.  If it disturbs and someone is able to move it, then by all means lets move the post to a differ area.


Edited by Spaciousmind - March 21 2021 at 15:13
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^ Not bothering me...I just was following up on the 'did either track influence the future of prog' idea...so I assume you must feel that if you placed it here.
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Ah, these two have nothing on Woody Guthie's Dust Bowl Ballads from 1941 as it is the first concept album ever made. Now, Woody was progressive in more ways then one. Btw, he also has the first recorded version of House of the Rising Sun in 1944.

Edited by SteveG - March 21 2021 at 15:26
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

^ Not bothering me...I just was following up on the 'did either track influence the future of prog' idea...so I assume you must feel that if you placed it here.
Confused

You are now starting to confuse me :)

If you read my first post:

"But I do want to ask about two songs from 1962 and your opinions of these two songs and the impact they may have had to that generation of 1962 listeners and musicians, inviting them, almost challenging them to explore new directions for their music."

It is an invitation to generally discuss what songs or even artists influenced others to change music through periods of time to get to the places where we are today.  Your assumption that my post is about Prog FOLK is incorrect as I would not have mentioned The Shadows or The Tornados if that were the case.

I am guessing you came to that conclusion because of my lengthy Steeleye Span post or the Dylan example?

So I agree with you if this topic fits better elsewhere then by all means lets have a moderator move it.


Edited by Spaciousmind - March 21 2021 at 15:37
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Ah, these two have nothing on Woody Guthie's Dust Bowl Ballads from 1941 as it is the first concept album ever made. Now, Woody was progressive in more ways then one. Btw, he also has the first recorded version of House of the Rising Sun in 1944.

Now you are really going back in time Steve :)
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Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

Steve Howe has said and you can hear hes influenced by the Shadows, Hank Marvin and Cliff Richrds.

Steve Hackett was a Shadows fan too. There are lots of their songs that sound more like early progressive rock than the one that was posted, although it is a good song in its own right. Steve Howe has a lot of Chet Atkins in his playing.

Edited by Easy Money - March 21 2021 at 15:47
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

Steve Howe has said and you can hear hes influenced by the Shadows, Hank Marvin and Cliff Richrds.

Steve Hackett was a Shadows fan too. There are lots of their songs that sound more like early progressive rock than the one that was posted, although it is a good song in its own right. Steve Howe has a lot of Chet Atkins in his playing.
I was about to mention Hackett and the inpact of the Shadows in hes guitar style. One might argue that the idea for the tremollo riffage for the Musical Box is both the Shadows inspired but also Dick Dale inspired

Edited by Icarium - March 21 2021 at 16:12
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The power of Dylan shall never be underestimated be it in the 60, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, 20s as hes now this year turns 80 hes presence is sometiems quite subtle. He wrote a tune in 1997 which have influenced many contemporary songwriter to cover, rearange, challange themselvs as the same song writer (Dylan) did when Manfred Mann coverd and renditioned hes songs in the 60s and 70s. The song is "Make you Feel my Love" and is perhaps one of the most influetual and renditoned songs in the 00s, 10s and 20s, the song stil retains an age old 60s folk root. I reccomend to check out Marja Mortensons south sami rendition of it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bqVn00oShxc
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The Shadows' influence was primarily in the UK (except perhaps for the Violent Femmes, who literally stole the entire "Little B" song for "Blister in the Sun"). Dylan, however, was not only influential in the States, but massive as well in Britain (directly influenced The Beatles, Donovan, David Bowie and Fairport Convention, for instance).
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Mike Oldfield covered a shadows tune on QE2, so safe to say he was influenced by them.

I LOVE Telstar by the Tornadoes!  used primitive sound effects that worked in that context.  The organ is epic
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