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Are Certain Genres Not "Music"?
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Erenan View Drop Down
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Points: 103 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Erenan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2021 at 15:08
I think hitting cement mixers with sticks is music but calling something music isn't some kind of merit badge. There is no value claim inherent in that. It's surely not a masterpiece to go 1 2 3 4 on a cement mixer. And I think the important thing is whether there is something of value there. Whether there's value I think is at least partly subjective, though of course some kinds of music are going to be more successful at producing positive value for the largest number of listeners than other kinds. I will add to that, though, that there are people on the fringes of the bell curve for whom the most valuable music just might be what most people think is garbage. And I think that's okay.
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Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I'm having trouble trying to find more and more different ways to say the point i'm trying to get across Ermm.

You're having trouble because you don't want to hold yourself to account for your words while you build up a gigantic stereotype out of someone simply saying hip hop is not music.  Now if you want to be so obdurate about it, so can I be so here we go...
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I
If your take away from my last comment was "Doug thinks only white boomers and teenagers don't like hip hop," you might want to read it again.

I hope you know what 99% means.  Because you used that word in your post.
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

f you’re referring to me particularly saying “old and white,” that might not be a particularly comfortable way to say it, but 99% of the people I’ve ever heard who flat out say hip hop just straight up isn’t music, fit into two categories: the out of touch classic rock radio crowd who really don’t have any sort of grasp on the genre or musicality behind it, or 13 year olds who just discovered Led Zeppelin.

I will add that this is an amendment to your earlier more ambitious proposition which was...
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, a embodiment of a certain stereotype (a certain 6 letter b word that last I heard was banned on this site, go figure)

So you assume the race, age and character of a person all out of one thing and you expect us to rush to your defence for it?  Exactly who's dying on what hill here?  Yes, it's rude and unpleasant to say a particular genre is not music but that does not entitle you to stereotype that person, worse still to slot them into a particular racial demographic and refuse to believe them when they tell you they aren't white or old.

No, the problem is you overstepped the line in your attempt to defend prog.  And then, having stereotyped MortSahlFan you complain about him personally attacking you.  What, did you expect him to just roll over and say yessir?

So...

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:


 I'm saying to these people, don't back yourself into a corner and an unpleasant stereotype. Rather, be the cool old dude with the tie dye shirt who has a broad respect for art.

That's their choice and it doesn't entitle you to personally attack them.  Please, white people speaking respectfully about hip hop is not going to make black people's problems go away.  So stop making such a big deal out of it where you assume that somebody saying hip hop is not music is an old white (possibly racist) bas****.  Yeah, you didn't flat out call him a racist but that's where you were going.  If dog whistles are poor form for conservatives, they should be for liberals too.  You don't get a special licence to indulge in dog whistles because you are saving the world from evil.


Edited by rogerthat - March 13 2021 at 19:03
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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Say it loud: I'm an unrepentant old white boomer and loving a huge variety of music from all cultures across the globe. (I'm NOT a conservative but I don't think Ben Shapiro is even remotely a dick for being clueless about music) It always seems rather predictable that these types of threads invariably degenerate into how polarising Hip Hop and Rap erm ...'spoken word music' is for the Prog community. As soon as someone plays the race card there is no coming back to any semblance of decorum. Dead I'm sure none of us would deny the musicality and improvisational ability of the beat poets reciting their verse against be bop Jazz in the 50's and 60's e.g Jack Kerouac (with Al Cohn and Zoot Sims) Kenneth Patchen (with the Chamber Jazz Sextet) and Gil Scott Heron's early albums in the 70's etc. Their modern equivalents and influence can be found in the likes of: A Tribe called Quest, Digable Planets, De La Soul and the Jungle Brothers et al. Seeing as how the PA crew are ripe suckers for complexity and 'odd time signatures' y'all, this is an example of truly progressive spoken word music that has very few peers even in the Prog realm:

Story 2 by Clipping broken down by Yogev Gabay (his You Tube channel has numerous other examples of metric and rhythmic innovation from Metal, Rock, Prog, Hip Hop, Rap, Pop, Funk, Soul (the list goes on)




I am not even that much into poetry but I love Tribe Called Quest for exactly the combination of jazz with awesome syncopated grooves. 
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I'm going to be honest AF: the fact that this thread exists, and the very idea has been entertained either directly or indirectly, is further proof this forum is probably done.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Ok, I’m just convinced at this point you’re going out of your way to misunderstand me, move the goalposts and put words in my mouth that just are not there. I’m not going walk back what I said because I know what I mean, you evidently don’t, you’re reading way to deep into something that just isn’t there. Why are the words liberal and conservative even coming up? It kinda tells me what angle you’re actually coming from and why the mere mention of the word “white” has you breaking down and hyper analyzing every word I say, and every word I don’t say....

Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 14 2021 at 01:03
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Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I’m not going walk back what I said because I know what I mean, you evidently don’t, you’re reading way to deep into something that just isn’t there. Why are the words liberal and conservative even coming up? It kinda tells me what angle you’re actually coming from and why the mere mention of the word “white” has you breaking down and hyper analyzing every word I say, and every word I don’t say....


No, you don't know what you mean because he said he is not white and you would rather pretend he is lying than accept you are wrong. That speaks volumes about YOU and how ideological you are about something as mundane as bashing music.
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Points: 3895 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 03:46
There he goes putting words in my mouth again. Only one person in this thread called anybody racist, and it's the guy you're defending Confused  i've said all these words in my comments, gone deep into what i'm arguing against and you're still stuck on the word "white." Of everything i've said over the several pages here, that really should not be your main takeaway.

Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 14 2021 at 03:50
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Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

There he goes putting words in my mouth again. Only one person in this thread called anybody racist, and it's the guy you're defending Confused  i've said all these words in my comments, gone deep into what i'm arguing against and you're still stuck on the word "white." Of everything i've said over the several pages here, that really should not be your main takeaway.

You are in the worst possible position to attempt to tell me what to do given that when somebody simply said hip hop is not music, you immediately went, "yeah, you are just an old white b*****d".  What words am I putting in your mouth?  Those were your words and I have quoted them upthread.  I don't care if it's so tough for you to accept you were wrong to stereotype him like that. I will keep repeating that it is wrong because it is, unambiguously so.  A retort to a dumb take on a music genre cannot be to stereotype that person himself; that's even dumber, even more rude. 
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Points: 9050 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 05:21
Maybe you two could call it quits instead of continuing this miscommunication. And go back to the thread's topic...?

In my opinion there are some different meanings given to the word "music" here, navigating between music as the result of a work of creation and music as a quality of what we hear ("quality" in the sense of a characteristic aspect of something, not the good/bad quality-thing). There can be much musical quality in the singing of birds, but I don't think we could consider what they produce a work of music (for me it has a lot to do with the intention behind it). But we can manipulate these sounds into a work of music (music concrète is of course the example of using "found" sounds in order to create a work of music).
Some here have argued that music is in the ear of the beholder, which corresponds in my opinion to recognizing/hearing a musical quality in things, without "it" necessarily being music (as the result of a work of creation).

That said, we can all have a personal definition of what "music" is, but it won't make communication with others easier if we don't try to understand how the other is using (defining) the same word.

And: bad music is still music.


Edited by suitkees - March 14 2021 at 05:45

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"If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, and an embodiment of a certain stereotype"

"yeah, you are just an old white b*****d"

I mean besides the fact you're dramatizing what I actually said, I really don't feel bad about that comment, and i'm not really going to keep arguing over a harmless poke like that. His original comment just reeked of dopy closeminded ignorance and just totally shot down and wrote off a multitude of genres all in one big sweep. We're on an anonymous prog music form, if I see someone bashing hip hop, electronic instruments/drums and pitch correction, as far as I'm concerned you're a middle aged dad who gets excited every summer for the rock legacy tour featuring Foreigner, REO Speedwagon and Tesla until proven otherwise. Someone like him isn't looking for any sort of open minded discussion when they're just presenting their opinions as blunt objective fact. My reply at the end there was really just meant to be a light passing jab, no, I don't actually hate old white people or think lesser of them, I mean eventually i'll be one myself. But every now and then it's fun to poke fun at a generational stereotype the same way one could make fun of people who are my age for a multitude of reasons, like idk.... we're all a bunch of Tik Tok, Tide Pod Eating, Nicotine Addicted, fiends who listen to cartoonishly autotuned and hyper produced music. I think at the end of the day it's not like old white people are under any sort of attack in their day to day lives and a forum post like my own probably wont be sending any sort of shockwaves their way.


Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 14 2021 at 05:29
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Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

...who listen to cartoonishly autotuned and hyper produced music.

Oh, you're talking about the new Arc of Life album here...!?  Wink

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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

...who listen to cartoonishly autotuned and hyper produced music.

Oh, you're talking about the new Arc of Life album here...!?  Wink
Or almost anything Sir Billy of Sherwood has been involved in.

Ah well, different strokes for different folks. It might not be my cup of tea, but is is music. 🤢🤮
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@dougmcauliffe

I think a young person is more likely to see rap and hip-hop that way.

As for the recent discussion, there could be the flip side of the coin too; that is, a black person who "defends" rap and hip-hop JUST because it is a "black" thingy.
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

 the singing of birds, but I don't think we could consider what they produce a work of music (for me it has a lot to do with the intention behind it).


For exactitude's sake, some birds sing and some don't. I think the birds that (can) sing are making melodies and that is within the framework of creating music. Though, I wouldn't say they are very creative about it, haha. The discussion could be about whether the melodies they sing are instinctive or not. In either case, I'd call it "music", given that an entire song can be composed of a single melody (and the variations of it).


Edited by Shadowyzard - March 14 2021 at 06:02
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^ hehe. What more is, they have a good memory, because every day they sing the same song, over and over again... Wink
If their songs can be called music in the sense of a work of creation remains open for debate... I've many birds flying and singing around the house, but I'm note a specialist. (but hey, "song" means work of creation, no? Oh gosh...)

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^ All the birds are the "cover" artists of their first ancestors and are doomed to be so for eternityyyyyyyyy!

Oh well, no... That shouldn't be it, there is evolution, for God's sake! LOL
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

...who listen to cartoonishly autotuned and hyper produced music.

Oh, you're talking about the new Arc of Life album here...!?  Wink

LOL 

Alright, alright.... we might be able to make a case for "Arc of Life" not being music Smile Is Arc of Life really gonna be the moment of clairty? The middle ground of this thread? LOLLOL The second I saw the name Billy Sherwood attached and a track called "Locked Down," I knew exactly what we were getting into.


Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 14 2021 at 06:20
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A lot of traditional Māori music uses birdsong. Among the various taonga pūoro (traditional Māori musical instruments) are some that deliberately mimic birdsong.

One of my favourite albums from last year was Ruby Solly’s Pōneke- which uses a combination of taonga pūoro, cello and found sounds/field recordings. The birdsong you hear when you listen is not from field recordings, but rather from taonga pūoro.


Pōneke was one of two taonga pūoro albums that really spoke to me last year, the other being by Ariana Tikao and Al Fraser.


I also really enjoyed another album featuring Al Fraser, which deliberately pitted the ancient sounds of taonga pūoro against more modern electronic sounds.


And each one of these albums that I throughly enjoyed, and absolutely found musical, provoked the reaction of some to question if they were even music at all.



 
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Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

 the singing of birds, but I don't think we could consider what they produce a work of music (for me it has a lot to do with the intention behind it).


For exactitude's sake, some birds sing and some don't. I think the birds that (can) sing are making melodies and that is within the framework of creating music. Though, I wouldn't say they are very creative about it, haha. The discussion could be about whether the melodies they sing are instinctive or not. In either case, I'd call it "music", given that an entire song can be composed of a single melody (and the variations of it).


Blackbirds and Caucasian birds all joined in a dawn chorus of sumptuous musical harmony. Bless.
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

This should blow your mind.


Just beautiful.
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