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Are Certain Genres Not "Music"?

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dougmcauliffe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2021 at 12:51
I just wish some people would have a moment of clarity and instead of trying to tear down an entire movement and genre of music, not limited to hip hop, they would choose one of these two options:

1: "Well, I haven't found anything I like from this genre but I'm willing to take recommendations and give it a fair shot and try to understand the appeal"

or,

2: "I've given this style a fair shot and at the end of the day, it just isn't for me. But if you enjoy it, more power to you, maybe one day i'll come around to it"

I feel like both of these are totally understandable, way more productive and far less offensive than trying to do mental gymnastics to scientifically prove that a genre of music you don't like or understand, can't even be called music.


Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 11 2021 at 12:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2021 at 12:31
I don't see how hitting a drum with the same force 10 times and getting the same sound out of it is any different than playing a sample 10 times on a drum machine. They both achieve the same thing. I also believe using pitch correction or tuning, which has been used for several several years can actually be used in really interesting and creative ways to manipulate sound. Also.... I mean.... the mellotron itself is sampling, and that's once again, another technique that goes back years long before hip hop was a thing. If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, a embodiment of a certain stereotype (a certain 6 letter b word that last I heard was banned on this site, go figure), and probably don't have enough respect or understanding of music as a whole, let alone that genre and its history, to be commenting on it. Beer

Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 11 2021 at 12:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MortSahlFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2021 at 11:07
For me, music must have musical instruments. A voice is a musical instrument to me. A drum machine is not. Nor is auto-tune and other automated computer generated sh*t.

There are songs that might have a sound such as an actual glass breaking for effect, or the band recording thunder for spice, but there's usually a drum set involved, or a guitar, piano, vocals.

For me, I would guess most rap is not music. For example, The Doors rapped, rhythmically singing lyrics with music... Sampling is lazy corporate business bullsh*t. Taking a hit song, and just adding an extra layer with auto-tune because one can't sing is degeneracy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2021 at 08:47
One definition  of music is the art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.

That means melody and harmony are not prerequisites for defining a sonic stream of consciousness as music.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2021 at 08:40
One can experience the music of humans talking (try focusing on the sounds more than the words; languages can be very musical), the music of junk falling down the steps, the music of cars and trucks on a highway, the music in the radio signals emitted from planets and stars, or even the music of silence itself (by this I mean purposeful placements of silence between sounds).

So I can't really define music per se. It seems to me more like an experience. We can definitely narrowly define it to what most folks traditionally think of as music, but there will always be these gray areas around the edges of this narrow definition.

You can even take a different path with this (though I admit there may be many flaws with this idea). Music can be described by mathematics and in a way you could describe mathematics as a form of music. This would eventually lead some to the idea that the universe is itself music and music is the universe. So I leave that idea for anyone that has nothing to do today to ponder.






Edited by progaardvark - March 11 2021 at 08:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 21:18
Ah, this is a what is music thread. 

Well, the best definition I can think of is, (deliberately) manipulated sound. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 20:10
The word genre is meaningless without another word that goes with it, so when you ask if a certain genre of music is well, music then of course it is.

Are certain genres of art not music? Of course.

You could rightfully ask a question that refers to sound art genera being classified as music or not.

If the gist of your question is whether certain free improvisation or sound collage works are music then i guess the answer would be: it  depends on the listener.

Some music is so obscured by mystery that there is music lurking beneath but it comes off as gibberish.

Think about scores like "Kontakte" by Stockhausen which sounds like a smattering of randomness but in fact is quite structured and complex in its compositional approach therefore yes, it is music but lurking in a sea of abstractness that may not make it recognizably so.

As far as if artists like AMM or the noise of Merzbow are musical, i guess that's a gray area of interpretation which is probably what the artists were trying to achieve, namely attention through controversy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Erenan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 19:50
Presuming the question is asking about genres that purport to be music but actually are not music, and insofar as certain definitions of "music" might be considered to be correct definitions, there do exist correct definitions for which the answer is "no."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:57
An "amusing" topic.

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

'Music' comes from the Greek mousa (muse),
The Muses were the Greek poets' divinized conceptions of the faculties that help them to create and recite poetry.
So, the simple answer to your question is, NO, certain genres (whatever they are) are ALWAYS music.
Next question?
 
While, without seeing your post, I might have opted to present a tautology and say that non-music genres are not music or music genres by definition, since genres refers to categories of artistic composition, and the muses cover the arts and sciences, I will defer to your point in a certain agreement. Music can be considered to be more than sound, but also it can be considered to be less than "just sound" since it commonly implies arrangement.   Traffic noise can be incorporated into music and by itself not be considered music.  Trafficcore, and Post-Traffic, may be music genres, and Traffic is a band, but traffic noise alone might not inspire the muses -- that said, traffic controllers may be inspired by Erato, the muse of erotic poetry and traffic control.  Noise music is a genre of music, of course, but that incorporates "just noise" into a musical framework.  I often think of music generally as simply ordered and sequential notes of sound (though some have attempted one note "music").  That sound need not be musical per se to my ears, but it is structured to be music or must be perceived as music, which can rather depend on the listener.  Music generally is a sort of relationship between the composer and the sound, and the sound and the listener.

As for the "next question", when (if ever or never) is the Art genre not Art when it's an Art Garfunkel?  And what is art, and the limitations thereof, in the garfunkelian paradigm? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:33
Any sound, or lack of sound, that is performed by an artist whether deliberate or improvised meets my definition of music whether it be free jazz or industrial drone noise. It may not be music I'd listen to but it meets the definition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:17
Hi,

About SW ... his "definition" of music has changed. In the earlier days, the band created an atmosphere that helped his words stand up ... and nowadays, there is no atmosphere ... just a "song" and the words are more important than the atmosphere, and we're supposed to enjoy the feeling by his words ... 

I'm not sure that I care for the "song" person named SW ... I much prefer the trip material that was his band ... but then, you know what this says, right? ... guess where the "trip" idea came from ... NOT HIM! Specially visible now that he thinks his words are the trip and the music is secondary to it! Just augmented by his solo part and such ... just another "pop song" in my book!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:14
I think the presence of any one of those things, melody, harmony or rhythm is enough to constitute being called "music." I'd take it even further to the point where really any collection of sounds can be music, some of the most incredible stuff i've ever heard was when a professor showed me this small ensemble of her and some colleagues using their instruments in the most unconventional and avant garde ways, using mallets on the inside of a piano, vibrating guitar strings by tapping and rubbing the back of the guitar, it was really indescribable. I don't think anything is black and white, and music is what you make of it. At the end of the day it is just a collection of floating notes and pitches, it can be anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 18:05
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

A friend told me the story that he once went to an avantgarde concert (that some people may not find very "musical"). Somebody stood up and shouted "that's not music", and the bandleader then said, "well, I don't know, we can talk about that if you want, or we may go on anyway if that's fine by you". Which apparently was more popular, so they did...
...

Hi,

Still not as bad as when we came out of "East Meets West" in Chicago and the fat over done ladies were in unison and the leader was saying out loud ... "how can you call all that improvisation ... music?" ... and it didn't matter that one of its folks was Yehudi Menuhin ... along with Ravi Shankar ... the lack of respect for the artists appreciation for music from what would be considered a different realm ... is a problem ... and guess what ... we get the same thing here.

I do not, exactly, think that rap/hip-hop is not music, but it creates a bit of confusion in my mind as to what "music" is ... and is not. But, one thing, for sure ... I do not want the RIGID and pathetic, separation that academia makes for all this ... because a lot of the hit stuff, still is considered "street music" and not "real music" ... and at this point I say ... time out ...  now we're back to social rendering ... not discussing music! So someone is telling me that a circle in a different country with different people can not count because it was a ritual (going back to Missa Luba, and Pipes of Pan) and NOT MUSIC per se, which means it had to be composed and then played.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:56
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Define "music" please....

Hi,

And I think that's where it all "starts". I'm guilty in that in the 60's there were things being done in theater, film and music that "defied" the standard norms of "what music is/was" ... and yet, we did not dislike them, and somehow they survived the onslaught of folks making fun of it. 

A fun example ... some electronic stuff in the 50's was not considered "music" but was used in a few films, and it came off fantastic, helping give it "not here" or "somewhere else in the universe" feel ... that even things like "Star Wars" DID NOT DO, BUT FAKED IT!

In the 60's when you look at Joseph Chaikan and many others, the "voice" was important, and when you see Mick accentuate certain words and phrases, you know he "got it" ... and used it forever, and still does very well. It defied the "definition" of the art form, but one thing happened ... it ended up spreading the "experiment" into the main source of music ... electronics in the early days, got a "keyboard" and all of a sudden was "considered" music because it was played ... not just haphazard noises!

Fast forward, and we get into a society that is so split up, in every way you can possibly imagine, and what do we do? We create a myriad of "genres" so people can find the stuff that seems better for them ... and in essence all we're doing is separating everything, and avoiding the discussion of ... "what is music". 

It doesn't help that many of the genres are not even about "music" per se, within a composed context, which has been for hundreds of years the defined "description" of what is music and what is just a barroom brawl and fun! Thus, my take (sometimes -- not always) that some stuff defies the idea of what music is ... well, I guess that using your DAW and creating a beat is composition ... without anything else except the adlibbing and words thrown in for effect ... the only concern I have is that the "beat" doesn't change ... another sentence is added to it instead, which makes is seem like "music".

My take is that the breakdown in the "definition" of things is the problem, and add to the equation that everyone in "social media" is a music expert and that their opinion is more important than the history and what made us define it so ... and many of these folks at times, do not care about that history or definition ... they just want their jingle in their ears, so they can have enough gumption to go to work, or school! We did the same thing a bit differently I thought, but in the end ... it feels like it was just different clothing! And, of course, colors!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:39
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

This should blow your mind.
Not mine. What do you think of this?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:30
A friend told me the story that he once went to an avantgarde concert (that some people may not find very "musical"). Somebody stood up and shouted "that's not music", and the bandleader then said, "well, I don't know, we can talk about that if you want, or we may go on anyway if that's fine by you". Which apparently was more popular, so they did...

This comes too late in the day so I'll probably join in tomorrow (thought there's quite a bit of work to do).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 17:17
This should blow your mind.




Edited by JD - March 10 2021 at 17:18
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:57
Have you not seen The Beatles White Album?
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:43
As I said, for me, music needs rhythm (the beat), melody (what you hum - usually the lyrics), and harmony (the chords or notes that exist with melody). Sound only is not music. Was your baby waking you up all night crying (sound) music? Not to my ears. Just like a blank canvas is not art - it needs paint.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2021 at 16:35
First flaw in Grumpyprogfan's argument...How does A Cappella only have one of the three elements from the list above, it has two at the very least and a talented singer can sing harmony with themselves.

Ok, my mistake, it was a twin. LOL

But really, rhythm & melody are easily present in singing
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