The Renaissance Zone |
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triptych
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 27 2019 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 870 |
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I appreciate Renaissance a lot. They're a lot better than other hyped-up bands of their time
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Ruby900
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 03 2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 739 |
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Such a wonderful band. Sublime really. I have often wondered why they didn't achieve the kind of success their undoubted talents deserved. I read one theory on this, which stated that maybe too much (if it is possible) was made of Annie and her incredible voice. That in some way this overshadowed the rest of the band.
I have to say that my son and I are in regular contact with Jon Camp. What a lovely guy. We have exchanged a few emails about all things Renaissance and in my son's case technical questions relating to his bass and bass playing. Nothing is too much bother. As others have said probably as good a bass player as Prog ever produced.
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"I always say that it’s about breaking the rules. But the secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place". Rick Wakeman
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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I think a somewhat different version of the theory - which somebody who is a singer and Ren fan herself - suggested to me is that there is only a niche market for the particular kind of vocals Annie delivers. Even though she has a ginormous range and all, her style is rooted in a strong folk sensibility and built on restraint and nuance. That's not what necessarily 'sells' a lot. In the rock world, fans typically look for sensuality from female singers. Or they want those who can belt. This sounds very contradictory and is difficult to explain in a plausible way outside the singing world but Annie is not really a belter a la Whitney Houston even though she has such a powerful voice. If anything, her speciality is she simply cruises through the fifth octave and you never know where her chest voice ends, where the middle begins and where she transitions to head. But all those qualities that make her special also restrict her appeal. Coming to the band, yes, they were writing their music around her vocals which, in a way, is what most bands that had strong singers did (Gabriel with Genesis, for eg, or later, Fish-Marillion). The trouble, again, is as beautiful, soulful and technically amazing Annie's vocals are, what they aren't is quirky or dramatic. So there isn't a strong 'hook' anywhere, a 'weird' quotient that would attract prog fans. Renaissance make beautiful, accessible music which however isn't particularly infectious or catchy. It's a paradox. You have to be patient with them but what you get for your patience isn't impossibly complex prog that you never thought you'd hear but just sumptuous, melodic prog with soul. I don't think many prog fans would like to make that effort in the first place since there is a lot of prog that fits what they typically expect from the genre. And even among those of us who do, how many can honestly say Ren would be a first choice favourite? It wouldn't be for me. Say I had a tickets to either of Genesis/Yes/Tull/GG/KC on the one hand OR Ren on the other, I would still choose the former. And that's the rub. That said, I do believe they could have been more popular IF they had understood what exactly made Northern Lights work. In that case, they would have done something fresh rather than the tired 'Friends' from Azure D'Or. Northern Lights worked precisely because it has that which many Ren songs don't have - a hook. That simple, rhythmic guitar riff - simple but catchy. Just like great pop in general. It's so simple and yet it hooks you in and you don't know why. Unfortunately, it seems even the band didn't know why and their attempts to produce another Northern Lights only led them into ignominy in the 80s. Had they at least gone back to being staid, stolid Renaissance, they might have weathered the 80s intact and had a, um, renaissance in the 90s, instead of Annie battling it out solo and Dunford making two albums with Stephanie Adlington.
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Ruby900
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 03 2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 739 |
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That is brilliant!
Reluctantly I have to concede that you are right as concerns the lack of hooks in their music. But then their use of codas in pieces like Things I don't understand, Running Hard or Touching once are as about as close as they got to having 'hooks' (apart from Northern lights of course). And I think you may well be right that her voice, as pure and beautiful as it was, simply lacked the (maybe) needed character. When you start to think about it, many vocalists have voices that have 'character' - a little worn around the edges, if you will. But - having said all of this, I remain saddened that they didn't get the credit they deserved - certainly in Europe. They to me are as exquisite as it get - Prog wise. So maybe I need to console myself that I am a member of exclusive club!
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"I always say that it’s about breaking the rules. But the secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place". Rick Wakeman
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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I think, in that regard, playing some of the time in Europe and the UK in particular, anywhere but just the East Coast over and over, would have helped. In 2015, Annie led the new 'band' on a quite successful Europe tour and had a booking for a Brazil tour last year that got railroaded by covid. And they were in Brazil as recently as 2017. That shows that they just neglected certain markets where they were more successful than they realized. With no disrespect intended to either Miles Copeland or John Scher, I don't think they were managed particularly well. At the same time, they got a long rope to coast by through the 70s without rip-roaring commercial success, so there's that too. The point about character seems to be something peculiar to rock tastes. For some background, though I am a hardcore rock listener too, I am Indian and I have listened to lots and lots of Indian music. I am used to the notion of a voice just sounding sweet and beautiful and the singer using the voice as well as the text to evoke emotions rather than that it should come across in the tone itself. But that idea doesn't seem to work in the rock context...for the listeners. I think her singing works just fine but it's almost like just straight up melodic no frills singing is too tough to adjust to for the rock fan used to weirder stuff.
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Ruby900
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 03 2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 739 |
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Again, fascinating reply.
I completely agree they were mis-managed. Lots of mistakes. But equally they were given time. I wonder if they had been signed to a more 'sympathetic' label, things might have been different. I mean, if Yes (say for example) had been to signed initially to a different label, they may have been 'clipped' after Time and a word. And we would probably never seen them make CTTE, Tales and Relayer etc. Marks you think.
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"I always say that it’s about breaking the rules. But the secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place". Rick Wakeman
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Regarding a more sympathetic label, Annie referred to having been offered great deals in exchange for you-know-what, which she says she turned down. They did eventually get a Warner Bros deal but that was in 77 with Novella and already past time as far as prog was concerned.
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8950 |
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I try to resist guessing why so many of my favourites never hit it really big. Subjectively I don't get it because to me the bands I love are just so easy to love, and Renaissance is definitely top 5 for me. Such a string of high quality enjoyable albums in the 1970s, with plenty of what I would readily call hooks. At least they were for me. And Annie certainly left my college buddies spellbound, but I wonder if any of them listen to Ren anymore.
And yes, Jon Camp's bass gave Renaissance whatever rock aspect they had, particularly during the series of albums with no electric guitar.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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In that regard, I always reflect on how it was getting into Renaissance for me. I sort of liked it but wasn't overwhelmed. I started with Ashes Are Burning. I wasn't blown away by Annie's vocals on that album though I could clearly see (hear) the talent. It wouldn't be until I had heard Cards too that I truly started to warm up to the band. Of course, now I know exactly what parts of which tracks I love. But in the beginning, it wasn't instantly infectious in the way the classic Yes or Genesis albums were for me.
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8950 |
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I just reviewed "Live at the Union Chapel" and hope to review "Symphonic Journey" soon. It's still on the main page but here is the permalink
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Well written! Loved the way you concluded it. Rising from the ashes again and again. |
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8950 |
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Thanks! My symphonic journey DVD got somehow damaged and there are parts that are virtually unwatchable :( Luckily the high def orchestral DVD is coming soon enough
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8950 |
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ps - I will let you use the "Rising from the Ashes" analogy as it's a good one and I didn't quite think of it in those terms Edited by kenethlevine - February 16 2021 at 07:58 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Damn!
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8950 |
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I got the audio download of the high def concert! High def audio?
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Intruder
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 13 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2165 |
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i've been digging on the first and, to a lesser degree, the second and Illusion's Out of the Mist as go-to "Renaissance" albums. Of course, the classic lineup and run of albums from Prologue to Song for All Seasons remain favorites, but the first incarnation/Illusion, especially that first album, had a groovy sound.
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I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there.....
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
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I'd like to add to the discussion that Warner Bros, who bought Sire Records, to whom Ren were contracted to in the States, gave the band a big push with the ASFAS and Asure D'or albums. Marketing wise, taking out full page adds in the Village Voice and NYT to promote ASFAS and sent the band on a promotional tour doing TV shows in the States like the Merv Griffith Show. So, at a time when punk/new wave was going ballistic, the band were as big as they were going to be, given the times.
Edited by SteveG - March 02 2021 at 12:35 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
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Btw, nice review on the Union Chappel DVD Ken. Guess I'm going to have to break down and buy it.
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8950 |
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Thanks Steve, it's worth it. I'm bummed about the Symphonic journey DVD being damaged but the latest one is on its way and I think I will wait to watch the DVD rather than listen to the download
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
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