Covid-19 and the madness of crowds

Lewian wrote: The Doctor wrote:   Crashing the economy in the name of public safety just doesn't work for me, nor does government mandating what people wear or don't wear on their faces. What is flawed about this is the idea that the economy would be less crashed without governments taking action. Obviously some people would be in a better situation to earn a living at times of severe lockdown measures, but surely letting infection numbers go through the roof isn't exactly a good incentive to do business. We better try to get them down and control them so that people are encouraged to go out and buy, eat out, and go to concerts without fear.

The Doctor wrote:   Crashing the economy in the name of public safety just doesn't work for me, nor does government mandating what people wear or don't wear on their faces.

rogerthat wrote: I do know of two persons from my circle of acquaintances who lost a parent to covid. And that's in person acquaintances.  From those I know online, one other person said he lost his father to covid.  So it happens.  And I am not an agent of Deep State or on the payroll of Build Back Better or Great Reset.  I just happen to know of it, that's all. So your not knowing of any such cases personally doesn't prove anything one way or the other, other than that it's likewise not necessary you know somebody who died in a car crash this year even though many more die from it than they did of covid.

At this point in my life, I pretty much trust nothing I hear third hand from the media.  But I do know a few people who have had Covid.  And it's pretty unpleasant from the people I know who have had it.  But I don't know anyone who died from it.  That said, on the few occasions I leave my house (once a week, me and the old lady go grocery shopping and that's about it), I do wear a mask and try to keep my distance from others, and fuss at my wife if she doesn't have her mask on right.  I work from home, so I don't need to worry about getting it at work (everyone I know who had it either got it from work or got it from a family member who got it at work).  And having multiple cats and being allergic to cats, I wash my hands almost OCD anyway. 

But I'm generally of the live and let live variety, with a few exceptions.  If someone's not wearing a mask, it really isn't my business.  Unless they get up in my face and start coughing on me.  Then there's a problem.  But I don't like the government overreach on this.  Crashing the economy in the name of public safety just doesn't work for me, nor does government mandating what people wear or don't wear on their faces.  And I really don't like governments calling for people to turn each other in for gathering or not wearing a mask.  That just strikes me as too much USSR or Nazi Germany for my taste. 

As for how they count Covid deaths, I've heard multiple things and I don't know what to believe on that. Whatever is going on with that, I think governments of the west are using it as an opportunity to seize power that they have no business seizing. 

kenethlevine wrote: lazland wrote: chopper wrote: lazland wrote: chopper wrote: One thing that puzzles me is our count of covid deaths being defined as "a death within 28 days of a positive test". This implies that it's death due to any cause within 28 days, indeed I heard recently of someone who sadly died in a car accident within 28 days of recovering from covid and he was counted as a covid death. To me this doesn't seem logical and would inflate the covid death count. Can anyone confirm if this is true or not? Yes, I can confirm it. It is absolutely the case. This is one of the reasons I have stated that the figures are a crock of sh*t. That's just bizarre, I wonder how many deaths that have been recorded as covid are actually not due to covid at all then? No idea, Alan. I doubt anybody has. I can give you a good example of this literally up the road from me (and if I have posted this before, apologies to all). In our neighbouring village, Phil Blodyn passed away two weeks ago. The death certificate stated Covid. However........ Phil had had a heart condition for a number of years. He was obese. He developed gangrene, and this spread quite nastily to his back passage. He was taken to West Wales General Hospital, and had to be resuscitated during the op. Unfortunately, he developed Sepsis, a horrendous condition. On the ICU, he also caught Coronavirus (this is, apparently, quite common. The Good Lord keep me away from NHS hospitals, please), and he passed away a couple of days later. My point? Phil was not a well man. It is probable, indeed highly likely, that he will have passed away anyway, but because he tested positive for Covid on the ICU, he is classed as one of our Covid death victims. Maybe, but it is clearly not as simple as that, and I think that this has been repeated many times. I have been trying, repeatedly, and without a great deal of success, to explain to Friede that the statistics are meaningless. I can only wonder why they keep repeating them. The cynic in me thinks it is to scare people. Nobody,. Nowhere, knows precisely how many people have died of Covid, or been infected, or where the virus is the PRIMARY causation of death. Nobody. Steve, I can't speak for the way things are reported in UK, but I know a fair bit about how they are reported in US, since one of my hats is looking at death data.  Cause of death data is indeed not super well reported here.  They tend to list a primary cause of death, secondary/contributing causes, and, sometimes, immediate cause.  One of our experts felt that the only meaningful extraction of death data is "all cause death", as the choice of whether a cause should be primary or secondary can be difficult to discern and two different examiners could choose differently.  But the important thing I wanted to point out is that even a secondary cause of death is significant.  With COVID striking people with one or more pre existing conditions much more readily than those who don't, it is tempting and not unreasonable to question whether the patient would have died of something else anyway.  But COVID seems to be the thing that accelerates the higher mortality risk to be an immediate risk as opposed to a decade or two down the line.   To not list it as a cause in such cases would be somewhat deceitful.

kenethlevine wrote: lazland wrote: chopper wrote: One thing that puzzles me is our count of covid deaths being defined as "a death within 28 days of a positive test". This implies that it's death due to any cause within 28 days, indeed I heard recently of someone who sadly died in a car accident within 28 days of recovering from covid and he was counted as a covid death. To me this doesn't seem logical and would inflate the covid death count. Can anyone confirm if this is true or not? Yes, I can confirm it. It is absolutely the case. This is one of the reasons I have stated that the figures are a crock of sh*t. I don't believe that that is true.  I continue to believe that the number of COVID deaths is underreported not overrreported.   Here is a pretty respectable look at this car accident phenom that seems to be spreading faster in the right wing media than COVID does at a 900 person indoor mask challenged  holiday party thrown by a member of Donald Trump's cabinet.  I understand that you can probably dig up hundreds of links that state that all accidents in COVID patients are classed as COVID deaths, but in this link they take the trouble to explain those very few cases that led to the conflating that is so prevalent on (mostly) right wing sites. https://www.wzzm13.com/article/news/verify/covid-deaths-car-crash-comorbidities-coronavirus-death-total-counts-john-hopkins-study/65-e3842ed2-f753-4a15-8b97-c2ae75c2b2ce

chopper wrote: lazland wrote: chopper wrote: One thing that puzzles me is our count of covid deaths being defined as "a death within 28 days of a positive test". This implies that it's death due to any cause within 28 days, indeed I heard recently of someone who sadly died in a car accident within 28 days of recovering from covid and he was counted as a covid death. To me this doesn't seem logical and would inflate the covid death count. Can anyone confirm if this is true or not? Yes, I can confirm it. It is absolutely the case. This is one of the reasons I have stated that the figures are a crock of sh*t. That's just bizarre, I wonder how many deaths that have been recorded as covid are actually not due to covid at all then?

Why, thank you chaps. Most kind.

lazland wrote: Friede. Firstly, it isn’t particularly nice to carry on this conversation endlessly quoting the post which Richard put up about his father. Secondly, I didn’t say that. You did. Thirdly. To repeat. Again. Nobody knows what the true mortality rate of Mr Lurgy is. Not me, not you, not anyone.  Fourthly. Arsenal lost again last night. Fifthly. I have just enjoyed a really enjoyable slice of chocolate Yule log. Utterly delicious, and purchased from Lidl, which should make you exceptionally proud. Vorsprung and etc. Sixthly. I will be 56 next Tuesday.  Seventhly. The existence of God has recently been proven by a group of analytical German mathematicians utilising various quantum equations. The chances of Said Lord existing is said to likely be 88.6546%. Unfortunately, a bunch of Qatarian scientists have now questioned the methodology of these equations, and the debate is said to be likely to run and run for the next 10,000 years. Eighthly. I can’t play cricket any more owing to a gammy foot. Ninthly. My pussy cat prefers meaty chunks to vegan sausages. In fact, she can’t stand the latter. Therefore, I have to cope with the guilt that my little Ally Pally contributes to the emerging global climate crisis, although it is estimated that said contribution is rather less than 0.000001%, a figure disputed by some eminent German climatologists. Tenthly. f**k me, this is fun, isn’t it? Just chewing the fat like old mockers?

Friede. Firstly, it isn’t particularly nice to carry on this conversation endlessly quoting the post which Richard put up about his father.