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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Genesis during the Peter Gabriel era(and just before Steve left). They should have been just as big as Yes or ELP but in the US at least they weren't. 

Hi,

By that time, the US market in the FM radio was already starting to wind down, and it became about songs, not the longer pieces of music ... and the only great example I had, was TLLDOB, when it came out ... on that evening, Guy Guden went on the air and played both albums back to back, and got such an incredible audience attention and reaction that he did it again a bit later! The rest of the station? They couldn't figure out which song to play because there wasn't a "hit" defined for them!

Laugh you doggies!

That makes no sense. If you use that logic to apply to Genesis then it would have to apply to Yes and ELP also and those two were big. Genesis were doing pretty much the same thing Yes and ELP were doing and in in a lot cases were more song oriented than Yes or ELP. So the fact that Yes and ELP got big and not  Genesis just tells me that they were doing something wrong in the marketing department or were on the wrong label and imo had nothing to do with the music itself unless you want to say that PG's voice or appearance(ie the stage costumes)were too weird or quirky for the american public but even that is probably pure bs.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 23 2020 at 10:25
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Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Strawbs tasted big success in UK with "Bursting at the Seams" but then imploded and had to settle for cult success in North America (especially Canada) for the two follow up albums "Hero and Heroine" and "Ghosts".  I could see why the bleak "Hero.." never quite gained a mass audience but "Ghosts" included a lot of that complexity along with some very accessible quirky pop tunes that deserved more recognition.   Maybe their potential appeal across the board resulted in limited appeal with any one audience, but they definitely deserved better

The same could be said about Renaissance although I don't know how big they were in the UK. I think they were just more of a cult band in the US and not much else.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Strawbs tasted big success in UK with "Bursting at the Seams" but then imploded and had to settle for cult success in North America (especially Canada) for the two follow up albums "Hero and Heroine" and "Ghosts".  I could see why the bleak "Hero.." never quite gained a mass audience but "Ghosts" included a lot of that complexity along with some very accessible quirky pop tunes that deserved more recognition.   Maybe their potential appeal across the board resulted in limited appeal with any one audience, but they definitely deserved better

The same could be said about Renaissance although I don't know how big they were in the UK. I think they were just more of a cult band in the US and not much else.

I agree about Renaissance.  Their albums always included tasteful pop numbers along with the grand sweeping epics.  They were much bigger in the US, with a sizable following in certain geographic areas but once you got outside the Northeast cult would probably be the operative word. 

Interestingly, their only singles success came in the UK with "Northern Lights" in 1978, a song which had no singles chart impact in the US.  If they could have had that hit earlier, before punk and arena rock were closing in, they might have achieved bigger success.

I notice that their albums sold in the US the way jazz albums did.  A typical well known jazz album might scrape the top 50 on billboard but be in the charts for 4-6 months, whereas a pop album could easily hit the top 50 but only stay in the charts for 2-3 months.  Renaissance's pattern was more of a jazz album - moderate interest percolating over a longer period of time than similarly charting albums by other rock groups
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I would think Illusion would have had a better opportunity.. Both their albums were great, and their songs were what I call "classic prog-rock", but they were all radio friendly and under 10 minutes, and I also prefer Jane Relf's voice to Annie Haslem's.
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Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Strawbs tasted big success in UK with "Bursting at the Seams" but then imploded and had to settle for cult success in North America (especially Canada) for the two follow up albums "Hero and Heroine" and "Ghosts".  I could see why the bleak "Hero.." never quite gained a mass audience but "Ghosts" included a lot of that complexity along with some very accessible quirky pop tunes that deserved more recognition.   Maybe their potential appeal across the board resulted in limited appeal with any one audience, but they definitely deserved better

The same could be said about Renaissance although I don't know how big they were in the UK. I think they were just more of a cult band in the US and not much else.

I agree about Renaissance.  Their albums always included tasteful pop numbers along with the grand sweeping epics.  They were much bigger in the US, with a sizable following in certain geographic areas but once you got outside the Northeast cult would probably be the operative word. 

Interestingly, their only singles success came in the UK with "Northern Lights" in 1978, a song which had no singles chart impact in the US.  If they could have had that hit earlier, before punk and arena rock were closing in, they might have achieved bigger success.

I notice that their albums sold in the US the way jazz albums did.  A typical well known jazz album might scrape the top 50 on billboard but be in the charts for 4-6 months, whereas a pop album could easily hit the top 50 but only stay in the charts for 2-3 months.  Renaissance's pattern was more of a jazz album - moderate interest percolating over a longer period of time than similarly charting albums by other rock groups

I don't think they ever had much more of a cult following anywhere in the US. A few of their albums did make the charts though but the same could be said about Nektar and I would apply cult status to them as well. Cult isn't a bad thing. Today Yes doesn't have much more than a cult following and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You don't want too many people jumping on the band wagon because then you have a thing like the Grateful Dead where people are more into it for the hip factor and don't care much about the actual music.
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Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Strawbs tasted big success in UK with "Bursting at the Seams" but then imploded and had to settle for cult success in North America (especially Canada) for the two follow up albums "Hero and Heroine" and "Ghosts".  I could see why the bleak "Hero.." never quite gained a mass audience but "Ghosts" included a lot of that complexity along with some very accessible quirky pop tunes that deserved more recognition.   Maybe their potential appeal across the board resulted in limited appeal with any one audience, but they definitely deserved better
I think that the Strawbs were bit too folk to be prog rock and too prog to be folk rock. And a bit too poetic for the sex, drugs and rock mentality of the US.
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Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

I would think Illusion would have had a better opportunity.. Both their albums were great, and their songs were what I call "classic prog-rock", but they were all radio friendly and under 10 minutes, and I also prefer Jane Relf's voice to Annie Haslem's.

 The two Illusion albums were great, but came along a bit late in the game for a prog group (1977-1978), but yes more of their songs were what I would call radio friendly.  But songs like "Carpet of the Sun", "I Think of you", "The Vultures Fly High" and "Northern Lights" were radio friendly as well, and the radio returned the favor

I like both Renaissance and Illusion, but Renaissance was around for a half dozen great albums and had a lot more impact and influence on other artists and on me personally.  I think both Jane and Annie have great voices but Annie has had much more emotional impact on me.  It helps that I have seen Renaissance many times and even met Annie who is utterly charming and genuine.  Ask rogerthat who recently bid on and followed through on a chance to speak with Annie via skype.
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I think that Giles and McDonald could have been bigger if they put more effort into their eponymous debut album. A strong vocalist and/or guitarist could have done them wonders.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Strawbs tasted big success in UK with "Bursting at the Seams" but then imploded and had to settle for cult success in North America (especially Canada) for the two follow up albums "Hero and Heroine" and "Ghosts".  I could see why the bleak "Hero.." never quite gained a mass audience but "Ghosts" included a lot of that complexity along with some very accessible quirky pop tunes that deserved more recognition.   Maybe their potential appeal across the board resulted in limited appeal with any one audience, but they definitely deserved better

The same could be said about Renaissance although I don't know how big they were in the UK. I think they were just more of a cult band in the US and not much else.

I agree about Renaissance.  Their albums always included tasteful pop numbers along with the grand sweeping epics.  They were much bigger in the US, with a sizable following in certain geographic areas but once you got outside the Northeast cult would probably be the operative word. 

Interestingly, their only singles success came in the UK with "Northern Lights" in 1978, a song which had no singles chart impact in the US.  If they could have had that hit earlier, before punk and arena rock were closing in, they might have achieved bigger success.

I notice that their albums sold in the US the way jazz albums did.  A typical well known jazz album might scrape the top 50 on billboard but be in the charts for 4-6 months, whereas a pop album could easily hit the top 50 but only stay in the charts for 2-3 months.  Renaissance's pattern was more of a jazz album - moderate interest percolating over a longer period of time than similarly charting albums by other rock groups

I don't think they ever had much more of a cult following anywhere in the US. A few of their albums did make the charts though but the same could be said about Nektar and I would apply cult status to them as well. Cult isn't a bad thing. Today Yes doesn't have much more than a cult following and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You don't want too many people jumping on the band wagon because then you have a thing like the Grateful Dead where people are more into it for the hip factor and don't care much about the actual music.

It depends how you define cult.  I think in the US Northeast Renaissance was beyond cult but also obviously not superstars either.  There is a big difference between Renaissance and Nektar.  Nektar had one mega huge album and the remaining chart placements were much less impressive and based on fizzling momentum. Renaissance had 6 chart albums and, while they didn't get much beyond top 50, as I said they tended to stay there for some months.  Even "A Song for All Seasons" in 1978 had a pretty good run, when most other prog bands were not up to much 
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As an aside, I think that early Genesis was way too British for the US too. Selling England By The Pound is not exactly a New York Minute. Tongue
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Strawbs tasted big success in UK with "Bursting at the Seams" but then imploded and had to settle for cult success in North America (especially Canada) for the two follow up albums "Hero and Heroine" and "Ghosts".  I could see why the bleak "Hero.." never quite gained a mass audience but "Ghosts" included a lot of that complexity along with some very accessible quirky pop tunes that deserved more recognition.   Maybe their potential appeal across the board resulted in limited appeal with any one audience, but they definitely deserved better
I think that the Strawbs were bit too folk to be prog rock and too prog to be folk rock. And a bit too poetic for the sex, drugs and rock mentality of the US.

yeah that's more or less what the all music guide said about Hero and Heroine in particular.
yes not folky enough and too folky at the same time.  Not proggy enough and too proggy at the same time, plus with a lead vocalist whose voice is definitely an acquired taste.  I've always loved it, and can't think of any song that is sung more beautifully than Benedictus, but I get that.  Still, when you consider that Supertramp became huge with a not totally different formula, it's a bit hard to understand
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While success is relative, I do think that Comus could have found a much larger following and bigger carreer in the 70s had things worked out differently. Not as a really mainstream band, but as a much more significant band having a cult-like status.
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Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Strawbs tasted big success in UK with "Bursting at the Seams" but then imploded and had to settle for cult success in North America (especially Canada) for the two follow up albums "Hero and Heroine" and "Ghosts".  I could see why the bleak "Hero.." never quite gained a mass audience but "Ghosts" included a lot of that complexity along with some very accessible quirky pop tunes that deserved more recognition.   Maybe their potential appeal across the board resulted in limited appeal with any one audience, but they definitely deserved better
I think that the Strawbs were bit too folk to be prog rock and too prog to be folk rock. And a bit too poetic for the sex, drugs and rock mentality of the US.

yeah that's more or less what the all music guide said about Hero and Heroine in particular.
yes not folky enough and too folky at the same time.  Not proggy enough and too proggy at the same time, plus with a lead vocalist whose voice is definitely an acquired taste.  I've always loved it, and can't think of any song that is sung more beautifully than Benedictus, but I get that.  Still, when you consider that Supertramp became huge with a not totally different formula, it's a bit hard to understand
I'm sure I copped that from Allmusic, as it doesn't sound like me. LOL But Supertramp was anything but poetic!
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Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Strawbs tasted big success in UK with "Bursting at the Seams" but then imploded and had to settle for cult success in North America (especially Canada) for the two follow up albums "Hero and Heroine" and "Ghosts".  I could see why the bleak "Hero.." never quite gained a mass audience but "Ghosts" included a lot of that complexity along with some very accessible quirky pop tunes that deserved more recognition.   Maybe their potential appeal across the board resulted in limited appeal with any one audience, but they definitely deserved better

The same could be said about Renaissance although I don't know how big they were in the UK. I think they were just more of a cult band in the US and not much else.

I agree about Renaissance.  Their albums always included tasteful pop numbers along with the grand sweeping epics.  They were much bigger in the US, with a sizable following in certain geographic areas but once you got outside the Northeast cult would probably be the operative word. 

Interestingly, their only singles success came in the UK with "Northern Lights" in 1978, a song which had no singles chart impact in the US.  If they could have had that hit earlier, before punk and arena rock were closing in, they might have achieved bigger success.

I notice that their albums sold in the US the way jazz albums did.  A typical well known jazz album might scrape the top 50 on billboard but be in the charts for 4-6 months, whereas a pop album could easily hit the top 50 but only stay in the charts for 2-3 months.  Renaissance's pattern was more of a jazz album - moderate interest percolating over a longer period of time than similarly charting albums by other rock groups

I don't think they ever had much more of a cult following anywhere in the US. A few of their albums did make the charts though but the same could be said about Nektar and I would apply cult status to them as well. Cult isn't a bad thing. Today Yes doesn't have much more than a cult following and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You don't want too many people jumping on the band wagon because then you have a thing like the Grateful Dead where people are more into it for the hip factor and don't care much about the actual music.

It depends how you define cult.  I think in the US Northeast Renaissance was beyond cult but also obviously not superstars either.  There is a big difference between Renaissance and Nektar.  Nektar had one mega huge album and the remaining chart placements were much less impressive and based on fizzling momentum. Renaissance had 6 chart albums and, while they didn't get much beyond top 50, as I said they tended to stay there for some months.  Even "A Song for All Seasons" in 1978 had a pretty good run, when most other prog bands were not up to much 

Not really true about Nektar. They had two albums that did pretty well on the charts. Remember the Future went to number 19 and down to earth went to 32(both in US). The fizzling momentum applies to Renaissance as well and also a lot of bands. Focus fit into this category also since they had pretty high charting albums except that two of them went gold. I would say over all they were never much more than a cult band either. Maybe my definition of cultis different than yours but Renaissance weren't bigger than GG in the US and to me GG were almost the textbook definition of a prog cult band. Having a few charting albums or even a gold record doesn't exempt a  band from cult status imo. King Crimson are another one I would say never went much beyond cult status. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 23 2020 at 11:38
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

While success is relative, I do think that Comus could have found a much larger following and bigger carreer in the 70s had things worked out differently. Not as a really mainstream band, but as a much more significant band having a cult-like status.
Yeah, way too creepy not to have a bigger cult following. Especially in the US. Perhaps if they came out 10 or 15 years later.
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Comus seem to have a pretty big hipster following these days though. Go figure.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


I think that Giles and McDonald could have been bigger if they put more effort into their eponymous debut album. A strong vocalist and/or guitarist could have done them wonders.


Like Greg Lake and Robert Fripp?
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See the source image

Exactly!

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I've always thought that The Rolling Stones could have become more popular if they had released a few more albums. I just don't think the music-buying public got an idea of who the band really was after only releasing 30 studio albums, 28 live albums and 26 compilation albums.
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I've always thought that The Rolling Stones could have become more popular if they had released a few more albums. I just don't think the music-buying public got an idea of who the band really was after only releasing 30 studio albums, 28 live albums and 26 compilation albums.

Actually, I think if anything too many albums can dilute a band's career. If you look at Led Zeppelin or the Beatles they were huge but only had a decades worth of material(if that)in them. Even if you look at Queen or Pink Floyd and to some degree also the Doors and The Police their popularity is hinged upon 5 or 6 albums at the most. So ultimately it's about quality over quantity. As for the Stones they are known mainly for their 60's and 70's output. The same is True of the Kinks and the Who. Who really cares much about the 80's material(or later)by these bands? 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 23 2020 at 15:44
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