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Rate: King Crimson - ITCOTCK
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Poll Question: How do you rate this album?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
0 [0.00%]
2 [2.74%]
1 [1.37%]
1 [1.37%]
6 [8.22%]
18 [24.66%]
22 [30.14%]
23 [31.51%]
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SteveG View Drop Down
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10/10. The only prog album that's truly a masterpiece as well as being extremely influential.
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

...
That's certainly interesting. If it doesn't connect with you though, then it doesn't connect you, no matter how hard or interesting it is. As a musician, if you can't bring yourself to play Moonchild and improvise with the other musicians in your group during the improv section (and have it work), then sure you have room to improve as a musician. However as a listener, if you can't bring yourself to enjoy the sound of musicians improvising without any idea where the song is going or what the chord is or where the beat is, you're not deficient. You just don't like the taste of that kind of experimental passage.

Hi,

And that, specifically your example, specifies that you are not into "MUSIC" ... you are into your idea of what "MUSIC" is supposed to be.

Over 50 years of seeing concerts, I would say that a lot of listeners are VERY DEFICIENT when they come to see YES, and all they want is CTTE and ROUNDABOUT ... or see another band and only want THIS or THAT ... which tells you that they are into something that relates to their personal lives, and NOT INTO THE MUSIC OF THE BAND at all. Specially when you consider 2 or 3 pieces as merely 1, 2 or 3% of their total cannon and output ... you are stating right there that you are not into the band's music at all!

As an example, you can hear and see in the material by MAGMA how this equation that you mention falls apart ... it does not tell you anything, and you pretty much have to close your eyes and allow your imagination to fly ... but rock audiences can't do that ... 

And worse ... we're supposed to be a bunch of folks about PROGRESSIVE MUSIC and we talk about it as some regressive piece of crap that belongs in the top ten every day ... not in "progressive music"!

After 50+ years of this, I really would like to state that too many people need some seasoning and some waking up ... you don't realize until 30 or 40 years later how much the whole thing meant to you personally, and on top of it, many folks are already dismissing it! And the fact/idea that you are cutting down your INNER experience by only listening to a few things that "you can relate to as a fan!", will not really help you learn something really precious and valuable about the human instinct and art!


Edited by moshkito - June 23 2020 at 07:49
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Sacro_Porgo View Drop Down
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

...
That's certainly interesting. If it doesn't connect with you though, then it doesn't connect you, no matter how hard or interesting it is. As a musician, if you can't bring yourself to play Moonchild and improvise with the other musicians in your group during the improv section (and have it work), then sure you have room to improve as a musician. However as a listener, if you can't bring yourself to enjoy the sound of musicians improvising without any idea where the song is going or what the chord is or where the beat is, you're not deficient. You just don't like the taste of that kind of experimental passage.

Hi,

And that, specifically your example, specifies that you are not into "MUSIC" ... you are into your idea of what "MUSIC" is supposed to be.

Over 50 years of seeing concerts, I would say that a lot of listeners are VERY DEFICIENT when they come to see YES, and all they want is CTTE and ROUNDABOUT ... or see another band and only want THIS or THAT ... which tells you that they are into something that relates to their personal lives, and NOT INTO THE MUSIC OF THE BAND at all. Specially when you consider 2 or 3 pieces as merely 1, 2 or 3% of their total cannon and output ... you are stating right there that you are not into the band's music at all!

As an example, you can hear and see in the material by MAGMA how this equation that you mention falls apart ... it does not tell you anything, and you pretty much have to close your eyes and allow your imagination to fly ... but rock audiences can't do that ... 

And worse ... we're supposed to be a bunch of folks about PROGRESSIVE MUSIC and we talk about it as some regressive piece of crap that belongs in the top ten every day ... not in "progressive music"!

After 50+ years of this, I really would like to state that too many people need some seasoning and some waking up ... you don't realize until 30 or 40 years later how much the whole thing meant to you personally, and on top of it, many folks are already dismissing it! And the fact/idea that you are cutting down your INNER experience by only listening to a few things that "you can relate to as a fan!", will not really help you learn something really precious and valuable about the human instinct and art!

Okay, I'm gonna try to make some sense of this, but really I think you need to chill out and quit criticizing other people for not liking what you like.

1. I AM into music. Very much so. The fact that you've got me defending that is laughable, but it's the truth. I play half a dozen instruments in multiple genres, sing, collect records, and most importantly I listen closely when I listen to music. I have listened to Magma actually, and I have appreciated it, although it's not my favorite music. It kind of blew my mind, but I don't always want my mind blown when I'm listening to music. Like I don't always want a gourmet meal for dinner. Sometimes I just want some macaroni and cheese, comfort food that makes the soul feel happy. Sometimes I just want to listen to Green Day and forget the world.

2. If hardcore Yes fans go to see them in concert and walk away a bit disappointed they didn't get to hear their favorite Yes song, that's not deficient, that's just the nature of being a fan. How would you feel if you saw King Crimson live and they didn't improvise one bit and played only their most popular songs exactly how they are on the record? I'm guessing you'd be very understandably disappointed, as KC are known for their unpredictable live shows iirc. It's really no different than a Yes fan who's been in love with the band since middle school who would love nothing more than to hear I've Seen All Good People live. The only deficient listener is the one who doesn't actually listen to music, who doesn't have any connection with the art or appreciation for it.

3. Perhaps listening and relistening to songs you don't enjoy on the off chance one day you'll "get it" and love them isn't a terrible idea, but at the end of the day you can't knock people down for trying to listen to something you love (in this case Moonchild), deciding after close listening and even some research that they don't enjoy it, and choosing to invest their listening time trying other new things and exploring other avenues they might or might not enjoy. Time is limited, and no one's going to spend much of their time listening to music they don't like, life's too short.

By the way, I don't dislike Moonchild. I'm pretty ambivalent about the lengthy improv and I think they did better improv on later albums, but I do like the whole song better than The Devil's Triangle. Does that make me a deficient King Crimson listener?
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

King Crimson - In The Court Of The Crimson King has been a very important album to my musical development. But I'll rate the album based on the music alone, without regard to its importance.
 
However, it was 21st Century Schizoid Man that was my gateway to this album, and I think it's unlikely that I would've got the album without it. The Court Of The Crimson King is a great track, but not essential to me (unlike 21st Century Schizoid Man, The Court Of The Crimson King would not have provided the need to get the album). Although I Talk To The Wind and Epitaph are the type of King Crimson music that normally would not appeal to me, these two tracks (especially Epitaph) are very good, nevertheless. I give Moonchild a rating of 2/10 because I only listen to a fifth of that track, skipping ahead after the song part has finished to the final track.
 
I acknowledge the importance of this album, both to me, and to the history of prog in general, but give a rating of 8/10 to the album as a whole.

 

Voted 10/10.

In my ranking is 9,75/10
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The Anders View Drop Down
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8/10 because "Epitaph" drags it down a bit. Otherwise a truely great album, and one of the defining albums in rock history.
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I prophesy disaster View Drop Down
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Points: 4908 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2020 at 04:25
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

... 
I'm not obligated to like Moonchild, or even to try to understand it. And I'm free to express my opinion about it on a forum such as this. But the point I was making in my reply to BaldJean was that if a piece of music doesn't resonate with me in a way that I enjoy, then understanding it at a purely intellectual level isn't going to make it enjoyable.
 ...

Hi,

This changes over time ... sometimes something that didn't click before, clicks later ... and it would be too easy to say that a more mature look would be different, but I think that there are a lot of things that go into that equation, many of which are hard to distinguish.
 
I believe I am older than you think I am. I've been listening to In The Court Of The Crimson King since the mid-to-late 70s, including the whole of Moonchild. So I'm actually quite familiar with the post-song part of Moonchild. It's only in more recent times with digital technology that I choose to skip the post-song part of Moonchild. I don't think it is all bad, some parts are enjoyable, but at nearly 10 minutes, there isn't enough enjoyment to stop me from skipping forward at the end of the song part.
 
 
 
And sometimes, I just listen to 21st Century Schizoid Man.
 
 
 
 


Edited by I prophesy disaster - June 24 2020 at 06:20
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Lieutenant_Lan View Drop Down
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9/10 almost perfect
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Blacksword View Drop Down
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Great album. 10/10 for importance and influence, and maybe a solid 8.5/10 for in terms of my own personal enjoyment.

Excellent album, as I said but KC made better albums later on.
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Another 8/10 here. 
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