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Statues & remembering the past

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2020 at 14:01
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Columbus was trying to reach India via the Atlantic Ocean in order to establish a new trade route. I doubt that visions of plundering Aztec gold or shipping blacks over from Africa ever entered his head, while he feared sailing off the edge of his flat world.

Hi,

CC was more interested in reaching India than anything else ... as I mentioned he was not setup for conflict at all, and apparently had just enough food to get where they got. And he certainly had nothing to do with the folks that came from Africa, which started much later.

I do not think, that CC "feared" sailing off the edge of the flat world. He had already studied and knew that the world, likely was round otherwise his reaching India would not be likely or possible. The Portuguese school in Sagres (I think it was) had already figured that the world was round ... but they kept it slightly "quiet" to prevent getting the big wig in Rome upset, etc, etc, etc ... and they did not make such a big scene with politics as the Spaniards did about it all ... which helped Portugal just do its studies, and it is believed that Americo Vespucci, and others had studied there enough to know what they were getting into.

Honestly, my Portuguese History is not perfect in this matter ... but Pedro Alvares Cabral who "discovered" Brazil, and then went around the Cape to India already had it "mapped" out what might/could be done.


Edited by moshkito - June 19 2020 at 14:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 04:17
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Columbus was trying to reach India via the Atlantic Ocean in order to establish a new trade route. I doubt that visions of plundering Aztec gold or shipping blacks over from Africa ever entered his head, while he feared sailing off the edge of his flat world.
I do not think, that CC "feared" sailing off the edge of the flat world. He had already studied and knew that the world, likely was round otherwise his reaching India would not be likely or possible. The Portuguese school in Sagres (I think it was) had already figured that the world was round ... but they kept it slightly "quiet" to prevent getting the big wig in Rome upset, etc, etc, etc ... and they did not make such a big scene with politics as the Spaniards did about it all ... which helped Portugal just do its studies, and it is believed that Americo Vespucci, and others had studied there enough to know what they were getting into.

 
Pedro, with the way things going in the world today, I still fear that the planet maybe flat. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 04:42
There’s a lot of this going on all over the world. Personally I feel that our history, however tainted it may be, needs to be remembered for what it is and what it purported into the world.
People with the much maligned offense-disease often get their ways because the world needs to be “perfect” and wholly political correct...even if it robs us of the truth in the long run.
Nahh these statues, the Auschwitz camp as well as all the other grim reminders of our past need to be preserved in order to combat the same evil from happening all over again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 08:03
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

...
Nahh these statues, the Auschwitz camp as well as all the other grim reminders of our past need to be preserved in order to combat the same evil from happening all over again.

Hi,

I think this is fine as long as it is after one generation, so that the emotional scars have a chance to heal a lot more, and the memory is not so strong.

But in the meantime, I almost agree with you, although history has been ugly in many places, and (for example) in Brazilian text books they hide the 16th and 17th century as much as possible except the usual the Portuguese, Dutch, Spanish, English came, they saw, burgled and some left! But for all intents and purposes, from my memory of it, too much of it was wiped out.

America has the same issue ... for over 300 years it was all "invisible" ... understandable since there were no books, or details about it, but several writers, and films have suggested that the corruption of the American Government in its controls was way out of order, and took the law into its own hands and used it to steal land given some foreigners which was done so these areas could be populated, only to have them be stolen by rich land barons that could afford the posse to steal them! And we have not even gotten close to the extermination of a lot of the native Americans ... because they were "savages".

I don't think we need "statues" to remember there ... what we need is to have the history books open up their American quasi/fake religious ideas and bring out some of the ugliness ... that was there, and was hidden as much as possible. And this was visible in the late 60's around the Kent State thing for me ... how the ROTC and the NG when they created the circle around the Rathskeller (where I worked!!!) and they would touch you everywhere to make sure that you did not bring in something or other, and you should have seen how they frisked all the women ... it was not only embarrassing, it was harassment, and abuse! But it is almost similar/same as to what we see in some Police Departments recently, where the folks that get hired are simply folks that think this is a shoot'em up game and that people are just another critter to aim at and shoot! And their attitude is not very good ... WoW used to have these servers that amplified a lot of racial attitudes ... and many kids/folks still use those comments, and we haven't even discussed the names of the "guilds" and some player names! That's even worse! Yeah, it's a "free" society, and sometimes, these decisions are important ... but memorials, by nature are a problem ... but it all becomes how much we want to remember and why!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 08:15
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

As far as statues of Christopher Columbus are concerned they should take them down. Not only did he not discover the North American continent (he never set foot on it in fact) but he single-handedly sowed the seeds of destruction for the majority of indigenous inhabitants of the Americas. Some statues are raised for no other reason to foster a FALSE HISTORY.


Hi,

Silly, he wasn't the only one ... the same thing happened in the rest of South America and then Africa.

In Brazil (Cabral in 1500) it was about a search for gold ... the excuse that later also brought in English, Dutch, Spanish and everyone else to rape, destroy and take as much off the land as they could!

Columbus is no different than anyone else in that respect, however, I am not sure that CC was positively setup to run a war like invasion, since he barely got what he did, and I doubt that enough "weapons" would be included in the stuff they needed ... provisions would make better sense. My take is that the "seeds" of destruction came right after ... because now folks in Europe knew there was some more land where they could chase for gold, and this also happened in North America.

Basically, all three Americas were the "Eldorado".


Agree on all of that. Just mentioned Columbus because that was the latest statue to topple when i posted that.

I agree that all these statues should remain in some sort of public park for history's sake but i understand why many do not want them to be in prominent locations that symbolize colonization and domination.

Once again, i like what Budapest did by removing all the communist leader statues and relocating them to a public statue park. It was one of the weirdest places i've ever visited.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 08:18
Personally the world should ban statues of humans. Only dog statues should be allowed LOL

Het Zinneke (DSCF5238) Brussels, BE.jpg


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 08:22
This is a condensed repeat of what I posted earlier. A statue isn't history, its a tribute. If the people of a certain area deem that a person is not worthy of a tribute, then let them stick the statue in a museum somewhere.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 09:55
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

A statue isn't history, its a tribute.

Initially it's a tribute, then it becomes history.
Breaking 300 years old (or so) statues is vandalism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 10:29
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

A statue isn't history, its a tribute.


Initially it's a tribute, then it becomes history.
Breaking 300 years old (or so) statues is vandalism.
There are no universal laws protecting statues or other holy cows of propaganda. Laws regarding statues vary depending on locale.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 10:52
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

There are no universal laws protecting statues or other holy cows of propaganda. Laws regarding statues vary depending on locale.

I agree. But what happens now from my point of view is nothing but madness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 11:53
Not a statue, but the great pyramids were built by slaves. Should they be removed? And the biggest con of all that has killed millions of people, religion, should all those artifacts, paintings, statues be removed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 12:38
Confederate statues erected during the jim crow era as a means of intimidating people are a day to day issue where I live. My posts pertain to that, as for the rest of the world and their issues, that really isn't much of my business and I am happy for others to decide.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 13:06
^ To that I would add that when the East Europeans threw off the shackles of Soviet oppression, I was very glad to see them remove all tributes to the Soviet government. Good for them. There is no rubber stamp yes or no that is going to apply to every situation. Every situation is going to be unique.

Edited by Easy Money - June 22 2020 at 13:07
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mirakaze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 13:15
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Nahh these statues, the Auschwitz camp as well as all the other grim reminders of our past need to be preserved in order to combat the same evil from happening all over again.


No offense, but this comparison doesn't make any sense. Auschwitz's status as a grim reminder to humanity is uncontested because it is unambiguous in its meaning: it shows the modus operandi of the Nazis without filter and serves as very clear evidence of the horrendous crimes that took place there. A statue, as many people in this thread have stated, is a tribute; it wasn't erected to remind people of the crimes committed by the people it depicts, in fact it doesn't usually do anything to specifically remind people of them and could just as easily be construed by evil men as a statement of support for them.

There is no reason why the few with actual historical or artistic value can't be relocated to a museum or some other place where the context is completely different. If you really want to make the comparison with Nazi Germany, there's a reason why Germany also no longer has statues commemmorating its own leaders from the Nazi era.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 13:27
I am not at all saying that they’re the same. I’m merely talking about history and how we continue to whitewash what we don’t particularly like about our past.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 13:38
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I am not at all saying that they’re the same. I’m merely talking about history and how we continue to whitewash what we don’t particularly like about our past.
Removing a statue does not change or erase history. The Germans got rid of their nazi statues, did anyone forget about the nazis, of course not.

Edited by Easy Money - June 22 2020 at 13:49
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 13:41
Bringing up the pyramids is a straw argument as well. Has anyone proposed removing them, not that I have heard of. Are the Egyptians going to remove their number one tourist draw, of course not.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 13:49
I agree that whitewashing history and/or removing things from the past that make you ashamed of the past isn't the way to go. That said, that isn't what is happening here. There are many ways to preserve history, such as museums and books and teaching/learning (albeit those last two seem to be out of vogue in at least America today), that can actually help people understand what happened, why it happened, and ideally how to stop it from happening again. If you want whitewashing, check out Brazil's new president confiscating books and materials from colleges. That's how you erase history (or at least the history  you want erased). 

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I am not at all saying that they’re the same. I’m merely talking about history and how we continue to whitewash what we don’t particularly like about our past.
Removing a statue does not change history. The Germans got rid of their nazi statues, did anyone forget about the nazis, of course not.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 13:52
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Bringing up the pyramids is a straw argument as well. Has anyone proposed removing them, not that I have heard of. Are the Egyptians going to remove their number one tourist draw, of course not.

Neither for that matter are the Italians going to tear down their ancient monuments, and how many slaves died in such places?

In Britain, monarchists (and I am ambivalent about the monarchy) often argue that if we got rid of it, then tourism would collapse, which is nonsense. People don’t come to see the Queen. They know they won’t. They come to see the historical buildings, monuments, and try their best to live the history. All superficial, of course, but then isn’t much tourism?

The Chinese jealously hold on to imperial palaces in Beijing.

The Greeks hold on their ancient glories.

All for money. Long may it continue. I love visiting historical places, and find them fascinating. Understanding a culture’s history, and visiting the places, does not equate with political leanings, or at least shouldn’t.

With regard to your point re straw arguments, I agree very much. The monuments from the Jim Crow era are very different, because they are a living reminder of a recent history very raw in many peoples actual lives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2020 at 14:20
As Steve mentioned Italy in his above post (with which I find myself in agreement), we do have plenty of reminders of the Fascist era - which, however, happen to have quite a bit of artistic value. Three years ago, this article was published on The New Yorker, urging Italians to tear down those buildings, and showing very little understanding of the country as a whole: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/why-are-so-many-fascist-monuments-still-standing-in-italy
Two articles were published in response to this on the Italian paper to which I subscribe. I have both of them saved, but you would need to understand Italian (or take your chances with online translators) to read them.

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