Statues & remembering the past

twseel wrote: Why is most of this thread about the American civil war? The issues are the same everywhere, everyone was an immoral scumbag as long as you just go back in history long enough with enough facts to know. The more we discover with empirical historical research, the more we have to conclude that even saints and scientists had dirt on them, offensive opinions, behavior that we wouldn't accept now...  I used to think it was stupid and reactionary to take these statues down but looking at the argument that the purpose of statues in practice is to set a symbolic moral example of 'good values', it actually makes a lot of sense to take down the high-praising symbols of them brave old warmongers. The main issue that gets the discussion so heated though, is of course that it's used as another token of polarization, where your stance on it supposed to be yet another indicator of which side of the big political battle you're on. As if we don't have enough of those yet... I'd say both sides should back off from the debate first and then we just let the local governments calmly get to replacing the old statues with new ones from contemporaneous celebrities or respected politcians, should be plenty of those that deserve statues (in the public eye) and plenty of people willing to make them I'd think.

The Civil War is paramount to understanding the racial situation in the US today, that's why it is such a hot topic in this thread and why there is the wide spread cry of having Confederate based statutes torn down. Simply put, following the Civil War, the US government was much more preoccupied with integrating the South back into the Union and healing the psychological war wounds of the side that lost than truly integrating blacks into US society. And the result of ignoring that integration of blacks is what you see happening now.

Re twseel: I'm probably not the best person to direct your question to, but when I try to think of a universally admired western icon; Abraham Lincoln probably comes the closest, after that maybe someone who used sports to advance society, someone like Jackie Robinson. A non-exploitative explorer such as Amelia Earhart also comes to mind. Here in Memphis we have statues to blues man WC Handy and Elvis that never attract any controversy.
Ultimately though, I really do think a statue is a waste of public funds that could be better spent elsewhere, and that is from a fiscally responsible conservative viewpoint.

As far as the other things you mention, a true and intelligent conservative approach to government has been undermined by phony con artists like hollywood donald and the people he attracts. If you want to understand what a fiscally responsible approach to government is, check out current Republican presidential candidate William Weld. Also, check out National Review, who coincidentally recently ran an editorial in favor of taking down jim crow era confederate statues.

Mostly I try to avoid simplistic labels and am willing to pick and choose my ideas from any approach. i prefer solutions to ideology. You may have noticed people on this site from many different ideologies uniting behind a concern that trump is a danger to the US and the world. You do not have to be a 'liberal' to realize what a truly horrible president he is.
Now back to the statues:

SteveG wrote: ^True, you don't have to be a liberal to view Trump as a bad president. But it helps.

^Good one.

Barry Goldwater to Bob Dole while expressing his disgust over the rise of religious intolerance in the republican party via Pat Robertson and Pat Buchanan:
"I guess we're the liberals of the party now"

Edited by Easy Money - June 15 2020 at 08:42

Columbus was trying to reach India via the Atlantic Ocean in order to establish a new trade route. I doubt that visions of plundering Aztec gold or shipping blacks over from Africa ever entered his head, while he feared sailing off the edge of his flat world.

^ And this has nothing to do with shipping black slaves from Africa to the "New World' because he thought the Bahamas was the "old world". It was just a few degrees the other way. About 180. All going in the opposite direction.  And the world being flat was a dig at silly puppy's conspiracy mind set found in Pedro's post. 

Edited by SteveG - June 15 2020 at 11:12

Easy Money wrote: Re twseel: I'm probably not the best person to direct your question to, but when I try to think of a universally admired western icon; Abraham Lincoln probably comes the closest, after that maybe someone who used sports to advance society, someone like Jackie Robinson. A non-exploitative explorer such as Amelia Earhart also comes to mind. Here in Memphis we have statues to blues man WC Handy and Elvis that never attract any controversy. Ultimately though, I really do think a statue is a waste of public funds that could be better spent elsewhere, and that is from a fiscally responsible conservative viewpoint. As far as the other things you mention, a true and intelligent conservative approach to government has been undermined by phony con artists like hollywood donald and the people he attracts. If you want to understand what a fiscally responsible approach to government is, check out current Republican presidential candidate William Weld. Also, check out National Review, who coincidentally recently ran an editorial in favor of taking down jim crow era confederate statues. Mostly I try to avoid simplistic labels and am willing to pick and choose my ideas from any approach. i prefer solutions to ideology. You may have noticed people on this site from many different ideologies uniting behind a concern that trump is a danger to the US and the world. You do not have to be a 'liberal' to realize what a truly horrible president he is. Now back to the statues:

 

Man With Hat wrote: Easy Money wrote: Re twseel: I'm probably not the best person to direct your question to, but when I try to think of a universally admired western icon; Abraham Lincoln probably comes the closest, after that maybe someone who used sports to advance society, someone like Jackie Robinson. A non-exploitative explorer such as Amelia Earhart also comes to mind. Here in Memphis we have statues to blues man WC Handy and Elvis that never attract any controversy. Ultimately though, I really do think a statue is a waste of public funds that could be better spent elsewhere, and that is from a fiscally responsible conservative viewpoint. As far as the other things you mention, a true and intelligent conservative approach to government has been undermined by phony con artists like hollywood donald and the people he attracts. If you want to understand what a fiscally responsible approach to government is, check out current Republican presidential candidate William Weld. Also, check out National Review, who coincidentally recently ran an editorial in favor of taking down jim crow era confederate statues. Mostly I try to avoid simplistic labels and am willing to pick and choose my ideas from any approach. i prefer solutions to ideology. You may have noticed people on this site from many different ideologies uniting behind a concern that trump is a danger to the US and the world. You do not have to be a 'liberal' to realize what a truly horrible president he is. Now back to the statues:   As I'm sure you know, true conservative government (in a fiscal sense) died a long time before the Donald came to power and the republican party at large has no desire to become one.

I won't argue with that, mostly I am trying to point out that simplistic labels do not work, political and economic thought can be as varied as you want. Personally I like to hear from all sides of any issue and I tend not to have really set views. To that I would add, if there was any intelligent conservative movement left, trump pretty much finished it off.

SteveG wrote: ^ And this has nothing to do with shipping black slaves from Africa to the "New World' because he thought the Bahamas was the "old world". It was just a few degrees the other way. About 180. All going in the opposite direction.

Indeed. Columbus actually hoped that Bahamian slaves would become a competing product to those from Africa in the Spanish marketplace, though this didn't really pan out for him.

SteveG wrote: He was only one of many arseholes of that era. Not the biggest by a long shot.

Edited by Mascodagama - June 16 2020 at 07:08

^