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Statues & remembering the past
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Points: 7957 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 12:48
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

... and have no place in a progressive society.

IMO today's society is whatever but progressive. LOL
Rather middle ages with smartphones are coming. 
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Back to the actual discussion about the statues, Robert E. Lee himself wanted no part of memorials to the Civil War:

“I think it wiser,” the retired military leader wrote about a proposed Gettysburg memorial in 1869, “…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”

That was in addition to an earlier request he rejected as well:

“As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated,” Lee wrote of an 1866 proposal, “my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; [and] of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour.”

After the Civil War, Lee had reaffirmed his allegiance to the Union, and stressed his belief that the country should move past the war. Evidently, Southern Sympathizers ignored his wishes decades after he died in 1870.
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Points: 10679 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2020 at 17:36
^ Kind of interesting that those who pretend to honor Lee with a statue don't even bother to read his own words on the matter. Statues of Lee don't honor him or respect his wishes.

Edited by Easy Money - June 13 2020 at 17:36
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Points: 22767 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twseel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 03:43
Why is most of this thread about the American civil war? The issues are the same everywhere, everyone was an immoral scumbag as long as you just go back in history long enough with enough facts to know. The more we discover with empirical historical research, the more we have to conclude that even saints and scientists had dirt on them, offensive opinions, behavior that we wouldn't accept now... 
I used to think it was stupid and reactionary to take these statues down but looking at the argument that the purpose of statues in practice is to set a symbolic moral example of 'good values', it actually makes a lot of sense to take down the high-praising symbols of them brave old warmongers. The main issue that gets the discussion so heated though, is of course that it's used as another token of polarization, where your stance on it supposed to be yet another indicator of which side of the big political battle you're on. As if we don't have enough of those yet... I'd say both sides should back off from the debate first and then we just let the local governments calmly get to replacing the old statues with new ones from contemporaneous celebrities or respected politcians, should be plenty of those that deserve statues (in the public eye) and plenty of people willing to make them I'd think.
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This makes me think of something I have already thought regarding building protection. Remembering history is important and also the darker sides of history, even those that were celebrated once... Surely the German shouldn't remove all stuff Hitler has put up, but there's a fine line. The neo-nazis choose such places to gather and celebrate, it's not 100% consensus now that it was a bad thing and chances are it'll never be...

Anyway, I digress. Regarding building protection, new generations should have the chance to do it their way. If you protect whole cities or parts of cities, people are condemned to live in the past, but people should live in the present really, and should create their present. So every monument deserves being questioned and most deserve to be removed at some point when generations have moved on. Every epoch deserves to have some trace protected, but surely it can be overdone, and arguably in some places it is.
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Subconsciously everyone is a racist; it is simply the cerebellum reacting to anything that is "different". What our consciousness, or our cerebral cortex, makes of this is what defines us as racists or not.


Edited by BaldFriede - June 14 2020 at 04:41


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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I'm rather skeptical about the ability of a 15 minute on line questionnaire to tap into my unconscious but 'implicit bias' is currently being touted as an accurate predictor of things as disparate as election results and unintentional prejudice by race, age, gender, sexual orientation and disability etc You might be surprised at the results this produces.
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Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Why is most of this thread about the American civil war? 

ummm.. paid attention to the news recently...  anyone is free to post about what is going on in their country regarding hundreds of years of racism, systematic or otherwise, and more to the point... the statues placed to reinforce it
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And maybe we need to look at the bigger picture.......
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watching that Doc... with any audio completely drowned out by the Motorhead album Raff is rocking out to at insane decibel levels .. but looks like a winner.. 

yes.. the big picture indeed..


Edited by micky - June 14 2020 at 08:31
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Why is most of this thread about the American civil war? 

ummm.. paid attention to the news recently...  anyone is free to post about what is going on in their country regarding hundreds of years of racism, systematic or otherwise, and more to the point... the statues placed to reinforce it
Now look, it's an interesting discussion but a lot of it just isn't about statues anymore whatsoever... Anyway, here is an America-focused question back for you all on the topic: who would be suited to get a statue of them placed today to replace the removed statues, now that the country is in such a polarized state? Maybe Obama could get a prominent statue somewhere eventually? And then will it be torn down again within a century or so because of his drone strikes in the middle east? Anyone else?
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^ Take that money for the statue and give it to the Food Bank so they can do something useful with it.
To borrow a quote from AA, I don't need statues to be happy.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Points: 10679 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2020 at 12:18
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

And maybe we need to look at the bigger picture.......


Excellent video. Unfortunately there are those in the US and elsewhere that would say this is just propaganda for a one world government/new order. Very sad.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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I could dig me some of that one gov.. new order stuff. as long as we get to put the other side up against the wall motherf**kers hahah
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Take that money for the statue and give it to the Food Bank so they can do something useful with it.
To borrow a quote from AA, I don't need statues to be happy.
Not saying I feel the need for any particular statues either myself but it's a pretty minimal amount of money and public space required to symbolically respect some hugely important and inspiring figures (like Obama?). Your response seems to point right to the problem I mentioned in my question in that a left-winger like you is so polarized against the right that you're clearly implying that you're against statues because of their current associations with the right wing, even if there's nothing necessarily inherently right-wing or conservative about the idea of putting up a statue for a respected figure. Although I could be reading too much into it of course... But then I've still seen this mindset elsewhere (not just in America of course).
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^ Well, since you already know everything I think, there isn't much need for me to reply is there.
I don't really care for simple ideological labels, I like to think for myself thank you.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Your response seems to point right to the problem I mentioned in my question in that a left-winger like you is so polarized against the right that you're clearly implying that you're against statues because of their current associations with the right wing, even if there's nothing necessarily inherently right-wing or conservative about the idea of putting up a statue for a respected figure.

I'm not quite sure if you're being willfully oblivious when you infer "current associations with the right wing", which is not the case. As has been pointed out amply throughout this thread, the Confederate statues have always been an issue, because they were erected by white supremacists for white supremacists long after the Civil War during the height of the Ku Klux Klan and Jim Crow Laws as a symbol of racial superiority and a reminder to blacks to keep their place. That you can't comprehend that these statues have been offensive to the black community since they were erected smack dab in the center of the towns they lived in merely speaks to a lack of knowledge or an unwillingness to listen.


Edited by The Dark Elf - June 14 2020 at 16:10
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Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Take that money for the statue and give it to the Food Bank so they can do something useful with it.
To borrow a quote from AA, I don't need statues to be happy.
Not saying I feel the need for any particular statues either myself but it's a pretty minimal amount of money and public space required to symbolically respect some hugely important and inspiring figures (like Obama?). Your response seems to point right to the problem I mentioned in my question in that a left-winger like you is so polarized against the right that you're clearly implying that you're against statues because of their current associations with the right wing, even if there's nothing necessarily inherently right-wing or conservative about the idea of putting up a statue for a respected figure. Although I could be reading too much into it of course... But then I've still seen this mindset elsewhere (not just in America of course).
Let me tell you something about your stereotypes. I am probably one of the most conservative people you will ever meet. I have been running my own business for decades, I have stocks and funds out the ying yang and I can live on next to nothing, I am that frugal. I am a Capitalist with a Capital C. Most educated people I know tend to think for themselves and they avoid simple labels and stereotypes.
Besides, not wanting to waste public funds on an unnecessary statue is a conservative viewpoint.

Edited by Easy Money - June 14 2020 at 16:46
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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^ Amen, bro! If people have personal opinions on history, let them raise statues of history on their OWN property!

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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Take that money for the statue and give it to the Food Bank so they can do something useful with it.
To borrow a quote from AA, I don't need statues to be happy.
Not saying I feel the need for any particular statues either myself but it's a pretty minimal amount of money and public space required to symbolically respect some hugely important and inspiring figures (like Obama?). Your response seems to point right to the problem I mentioned in my question in that a left-winger like you is so polarized against the right that you're clearly implying that you're against statues because of their current associations with the right wing, even if there's nothing necessarily inherently right-wing or conservative about the idea of putting up a statue for a respected figure. Although I could be reading too much into it of course... But then I've still seen this mindset elsewhere (not just in America of course).
Let me tell you something about your stereotypes. I am probably one of the most conservative people you will ever meet. I have been running my own business for decades, I have stocks and funds out the ying yang and I can live on next to nothing, I am that frugal. I am a Capitalist with a Capital C. Most educated people I know tend to think for themselves and they avoid simple labels and stereotypes.
Besides, not wanting to waste public funds on an unnecessary statue is a conservative viewpoint.
Okay, I'm very sorry for going off on a stereotype, I shouldn't have wrapped my post in assumptions about you personally. Then my argument only goes for people in my personal environment and you mostly side with me against them. I personally do however think that art, including purely symbolic art, has a place in public space, in a kind of leftist conservative sense (not 'conservative' in the sense of economically right-wing, which also isn't inherently very conservative really, as you point out). I just wonder if any famous people in the west today are still seen as a positive symbol in the same way these old figures were, if those old figures were even actually seen that way...
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