Statues &amp; remembering the past

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:26

^ I agree that the way I was taught at school (in the south none the less) that the war was all about slavery is an untrue simplification, but the confederate speech in question is enough to let you know that the danger of losing the slaves was well on the confederates mind.
I understand that Lincoln did not make it an issue until he was afraid Europe was going to help the south.

And yes, I know all about the tariffs, I am from the south you know, and I have heard my share of late night drunken lectures on what the civil war was really about.

Edited by Easy Money - June 12 2020 at 17:29

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:39

so then you see it was an conflict based not on slavery but on a differing ideology.. of what this country should be. Having never truly been settled after its creation. It was going to take a war to settle it. .and it did.. partially hahaha

but that is for 'another thread'

However.. what happened after the war.. you bet your ass it was racially motivated as Greg correctly noted and all while the North imposed its own brand of slavery.. economic....

Funny..getting back on topic. One of the more infamous Confederate Statues came down in the wake of Floyd's murder.. the one right down the street here in deeply blue (80-20 like) Alexandria. The with its back turned toward D.C.. and the north. Only thing missing was the uplifted middle finger LOL

and not a peep was heard from anyone .. in fact I believe the DotC who owned it were the ones behind its removal. As David has been saying..

oh the times.. they are a changin'

Edited by micky - June 12 2020 at 17:40

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:46

^ There was certainly no moral high ground on either side.

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:50

absolutely f**king not Beer

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 17:55

Racism on both sides. To the south, blacks were slaves. To the north, freed slaves were a great way to punish the south. The blacks were left to fend for themselves after the north walked away from the situation.

Edited by Easy Money - June 12 2020 at 17:57

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 18:02

micky wrote:

no doubt.. as might know.. I spent years researching William Barksdale when writing my book on him. One of the greatest fighting Generals this country ever produced.. and also dyed in the wool racist. Of course there were elements for which slavery was prime... but most fell in Lee's camp. A heartfelt duty to their states more than a defense of slavery. Just as there were those in the north that wanted that war to end slavery but the abolitionists were a minority as much as the Fire Breathers were..

The war wa snot about slavery.. Lincoln could nothing to end the practice.. it was not immediately threatened. As I alluded to our inevitable Civil War nearly happened about tariffs decades earlier. Both were symptoms for what really drove north and south to war. The breakdown in compromise over an issue this country had to settle that had smoldered since independence from England. For most included damn everyone who actually fought killed and gave the ultimate sacrifice.. to say it was about slavery completely misses the point why hundreds and hundreds of thousand fought and died. It was about preserving the union for those in the north.. While in the south is was about what all held more dear than that union.. their states..and states rights to determine the way they lived.. not Washington DC. That was what that war about was about and more to Greg's point.. what those soldiers fought for. They either fought for preserving the union.. or their rights of their states.. and the duty, loyalty each felt towards it.

You are buying into a long-held myth engendered by Southern sympathizers about the Noble Cause. The Civil War, or more precisely, Secession, was entirely about slavery. It was not about states' rights, except in that the right implied was slavery. Taxes and tariffs, although they were an issue, were not the main reason for secession (because some Southern states like Louisiana were profiting on the current tariff laws).

Every Confederate state had a prominent slave-holder clause in their Articles of Secession (or "Declarations of Causes" as some states referred to it). Every Confederate state makes the defense of slavery a clear objective, some states (Mississippi, Virginia, Texas and South Carolina) argue that slavery should be expanded, and Mississippi and Georgia point out that slavery accounts for a huge portion of the Southern economy.

And that was transferred into the Constitution of the Confederate States:

ARTICLE IV (Pertinent sections in red) --

Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.

(2) A person charged in any State with treason, felony, or other crime against the laws of such State, who shall flee from justice, and be found in another State, shall, on demand of the executive authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having jurisdiction of the crime.

(3) No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs, or to whom such service or labor may be due.

Sec. 3. (I) Other States may be admitted into this Confederacy by a vote of two-thirds of the whole House of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate, the Senate voting by States; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other State, nor any State be formed by the junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned, as well as of the Congress.

(2) The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make allneedful rules and regulations concerning the property of the Confederate States, including the lands thereof.

(3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

P.S. And that's why one reads books, as opposed to gawking at statues.

Edited by The Dark Elf - June 12 2020 at 18:09

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 18:12

no Greg... love you man.. but unlike John I am not a southerner. I just live here. I don't buy anything.. I read.. I study.. and apply my own experiences ...

both the Abolitionists in the North.. and the Fire Eaters in the south were at the fringes of each of their societies. Often were the elites if you will.

as I alluded to before.. people do not fight, kill, and die based on the economic interests of the privilegedfew. It is not why we joined.. not why we fought.. not why we killed.

it was we believed in America... it is why those in the North fought.. and conversely.. those in the South fought not for the aristocrats .. but for what they loved.. what they indentified themselves as

not Americans.. but Virgianis.. Tar Heels.. Mississipians... to them as much as any of us. And our parents and Grandparents before us in past wars. Soliders fight not for economics.. not against Black.. not against Jews as Germans did.. but out of duty and a love for their country..or in this case. Their state.

Edited by micky - June 12 2020 at 18:14

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 19:14

Greg is talking about what causes a government to go to war, and Micky is talking about what makes the common man under that government go to war.

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 19:18

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 19:39

Easy Money wrote:

Greg is talking about what causes a government to go to war, and Micky is talking about what makes the common man under that government go to war.

well..... yeah of course I was.. Wasn't that the topic... LOL

The Dark Elf wrote:

make heroes of those who fought for the rights of slave-holders.

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 20:40

Easy Money wrote:

We must never erase history, warts and all, but a statue isn't history, its a tribute.
As a southerner, I think Confederate statues should come down. They were erected during the jim crow era as a way of reminding black people who was still in charge.

The confederacy was the worst thing that ever happened to the south. Keep it as important history, but get rid of the glorious statue tributes.

As far as erasing history goes, %50 of southerners were opposed to the civil war. Where is their statue? Where is there a statue for southerners who spoke out against the confederacy? Where are the statues for those who helped slaves escape?

Well stated. One of my favorite examples of remembering the past but taking down hated characters who steered history into unsavory territories is a statue park in Budapest, Hungary that simply removed all the "commie" statues around the city and created a new statue park for those who want to visit them. To me that seems like the best reasonable compromise because those statues do represent history and should be available to remind the public of those eras even if horrible but yet not be stuck in a place where most citizens will be forced to be reminded. Statues are basically history of the victors and that does not necessarily mean a good thing for sure.

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 22:03

micky wrote:

no Greg... love you man.. but unlike John I am not a southerner. I just live here. I don't buy anything.. I read.. I study.. and apply my own experiences ...

both the Abolitionists in the North.. and the Fire Eaters in the south were at the fringes of each of their societies. Often were the elites if you will.

as I alluded to before.. people do not fight, kill, and die based on the economic interests of the privilegedfew. It is not why we joined.. not why we fought.. not why we killed.

Whether you owned or did not own slaves in the Antebellum South, slavery was ingrained in most Southerner's lives and their culture. In fact, farmers who were not actual slaveholders would rent slaves from nearby plantations during the harvest. So the leaders of the Confederacy used propaganda to demonize Lincoln as an abolitionist fanatic (which he most certainly was not), in an effort to frighten Southern folks into thinking there would be slave rebellions and the rape of white wives and daughters, as well as Emancipation putting freed black slaves on an equal footing with dirt poor white sharecroppers. This is referenced countless time just before and all through the war. Gen. James Longstreet was recorded as using that in a speech before a battle in 1862:

“One of their great leaders has attempted to make the negro your equal by declaring his freedom. They care not for the blood of babes nor carnage of innocent women which servile insurrection thus stirred up may bring upon their heads.”

micky wrote:

Easy Money wrote:

Greg is talking about what causes a government to go to war, and Micky is talking about what makes the common man under that government go to war.

well..... yeah of course I was.. Wasn't that the topic... LOL

The Dark Elf wrote:

make heroes of those who fought for the rights of slave-holders.

And Confederate slave-holders have been made heroes. Are you aware how many U.S. military installations are named after slave-owning generals of the Confederacy? I'll list them for you:

BRIG. GEN. JOHN BROWN GORDON - OWNED A CHILD SLAVE (and was a Grand Wizard of the KKK)

GEN. GEORGE PICKETT - FAMILY OWNED SLAVES

GEN. P.G.T. BEAUREGARD - HAD AND RENTED SLAVES

GEN. HENRY L. BENNING - OWNED 89 SLAVES

GEN. BRAXTON BRAGG - OWNED 105 SLAVES

MAJ. GEN. LEONIDAS POLK (also an Episcopal Bishop) - OWNED 400 SLAVES

GEN. JOHN BELL HOOD - FAMILY OWNED SLAVES

GEN.-IN-CHIEF ROBERT E. LEE - INHERITED 189 SLAVES (and didn't free them until 3 days before Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation)

Edited by The Dark Elf - June 12 2020 at 22:07

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Posted: June 12 2020 at 23:08

The Dark Elf wrote:

Catcher10 wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Yes, we'll all die soon. But that's why Greg (Dark Elf) said to read a book. That's where history really resides, not in some old senile person's mind.

So all correct/accurate history only lies in books?? Confused

And all the people that experienced these things in history are senile......cmon Steve.

So you're willing to accept a statue erected solely for white supremacy by white supremacists (if we are being accurate), but you're worried about history books being inaccurate? That is hilarious.

Such a Trumpian response by you, I'm not surprised as everything for you is black or white and no grey area.....my way or the highway, like your secret hero Trump, you should come out of the closet.

There is no discussion possible with you, as Blacksword asked a question, not made a statement, I think his question is excellent BTW.

I never mentioned accepting the statues standing for white supremacy, I stated that the statues have some negative connotations towards civil rights, so I do not accept them for this. I'm not sure what you want history to show, I guess you would rather people lie about what happened than explain the books and statues. We all know that not all books are 100% correct, especially history books, maybe you know the real stories and care to update all the history books, I'm sure historians would love you for that.

So why not lets blow up Mt Rushmore, create new paper money with nobody's picture, bulldoze all the monuments in DC as well the memorials including the Vietnam Memorial since all those military people don't meet your standards plus all the police and firefighter memorials all over the country since I'm sure some of those people don't meet your standards either.

Your only objective is to start flame wars rather than have a discussion, clearly you are a Trump twitter follower, you should stop reading his tweets. Like they say on Shark Tank....."and for those reasons, I'm out!!"

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Posted: June 13 2020 at 00:08

Catcher10 wrote:

What I don't think is right is removing these statues that for sure have some negative connotations towards civil rights and such because we need these to remind us what and how not to behave. I don't think we can count on school history books and the internet to teach what happened in the past.

Statues just become bird urinals all said and done and teach us precisely nothing as far as I can see.

Given that

43% of Americans have no idea who J Edgar Hoover was (source University of Pennsylvania)

14% of Americans couldn't point to Iraq on a map of the world (source National Geographic)

25% of Americans were unable to identify the country from which America gained its independence.(source Huffington Post)

30% of Americans didn’t know what the Holocaust was (source Schoen Consulting)

45% of Americans couldn't name a single German concentration camp used in the Holocaust (source Schoen Consulting)

31% of Americans, and 41% of millennials, believe that two million or fewer Jews were killed in the Holocaust; the actual number is around six million (source Schoen Consulting)

52% of Americans wrongly think Hitler came to power through force: he was democratically elected (source New York Times)

Isn't it education, good parenting, pluralism, sensible gun laws and an ethical mass media that might be better capable of teaching us how to behave?

Edited by ExittheLemming - June 13 2020 at 00:28

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Posted: June 13 2020 at 01:37

The Dark Elf wrote:

...

You want history? Read a book.

Hi,

I agree for the most part. However, the bad side of that is how much is hidden in the books ... American History taught in schools and the books have hidden all the bad stuff and complete annihilation of many indigenous folks, and then persecuted many of them for years, and called them "rebels". A lot of "black history" in America has been hidden as well, and even in the Youssou N' Dour special they talk about the boats and the folks that were put in boats and taken to America ... it was not pretty!

Statues come and go, and some end up in museums I guess ... even Michelangelo! But in the end, they are a "picture" of a time, that should be studied, but not prayed to like other examples have become, and is such an explosive issue in some places. I am of the opinion that the education system is the problem here.

I wanted to list some books/films, but I don't think it is necessary! But not all "books" are it, since so much of it these days is pulp stuff that has a way of messing with the reality and understanding of things. But there are many artists, who speak a lot more about all these things, than many books, and their art is valuable because of it!

PS: I say this a lot about our library of 40K books of literature now in Lisbon ... not all of those books are merde, DE ... there is a lot of great stuff in there, but it is kinda buried, and in the case of that library, something like over 10% of it was not even cataloged anywhere ... so there is a lot of "history" and "work" that will never be heard, read, or listened to.

It can't be just a book ... it has to be everything, all inclusive ... otherwise, all you are going to read is Harry Potter and forget all the other $hit!

Edited by moshkito - June 13 2020 at 01:52

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