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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 08:21
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

...
The English language seems to have evolved to be intentionally ambiguous which allows wiggle room for sophistry and psychological manipulation. 
...

Hi,

All languages do, for the most part and the Romantic languages are the worst in this aspect, since there are subtleties of grammar and language that the Italians might use that the Portuguese don't for example, and it all adds up to a bit of confusion about the same thing ... it's like you are all around one tree but everyone's description will be different and in different languages.


Only have a minute to respond. European tongues are languages of conquistadors which seems to coincide with intentional obfuscation of meaning. I.e. words have two meanings, secondary contexts etc.

If however you delve into indigenous languages ranging from Native American to African and even ancient Sanskrit and its derivatives, words and concepts are much more precise and offer no chances of ambiguity as the focus of cultural development didn't revolve around control of the masses. This is an extreme generalization of course. Even German is much more precise than English. Where an English sentence can be interpreted many ways due to context, German almost always makes it quite clear what the actual meaning is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 09:37
"Even German is much more precise than English."

Why has English got more words than German, then ? English evolved from German, and there is a word for absolutely everything in English. ;-)

German contains the same obfuscations and different meanings as any other language. Language is not solely about description. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 10:56
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

"Even German is much more precise than English."

Why has English got more words than German, then ? English evolved from German, and there is a word for absolutely everything in English. ;-)

I think German has more words, but many of these are compounds (the Germans can basically put any two nouns together and have a new word) and if they don't count as "independent words", English has clearly more. I think English is richer in expressions but German can be very precise. As a German having lived in the UK for 14 years and with some language geeks as friends a know a few things about this, however ultimately the question which language has more words is hard to address because the definition what counts is hairy and there are various possibilities. 
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German contains the same obfuscations and different meanings as any other language. Language is not solely about description. 

Why would you think that all languages are the same in this respect? If you look close enough, you can always find differences. I indeed think that German tends to be more descriptive and English works (maybe just slightly) more through metaphors and allusions. The ubiquity of compounds in German has to do with that. A compound is basically a description put together from other terms.


Edited by Lewian - May 21 2020 at 10:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woon Deadn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 11:35
In the Russian-speaking world of the former USSR republics, there's a common opinion that English is perfect for business, made for business, developed for business. Made to sell goods to people. 

The problem is that Russian or other Slavic languages have no less than six noun cases, each requires own ending of the word. There are many prefixes and suffixes that change the meaning of the word. There are other situations where the word may be modified, and not all such modifications appear in the vocabulary. If we count them all, the number would reach one million, I think. 

For good example, you may listen and watch this definitely 18+ video by the Russian band Leningrad. Using one Russian swear word khuy (that more or less sounds like English hooey) which means d*ck, by adding different prefixes and suffixes to it, they tell the story. By the way, if you are studying Russian and want to learn how to pronounce the Russian letter/sound x (though it is marked with kh in English and usually pronounced like k, it's not k, at all, it's rather English h, but produced a bit differently!), it's a good tutorial thenLOL




Edited by Woon Deadn - May 21 2020 at 11:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 16:29
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

"Even German is much more precise than English."

Why has English got more words than German, then ? English evolved from German, and there is a word for absolutely everything in English. ;-)

I think German has more words, but many of these are compounds (the Germans can basically put any two nouns together and have a new word) and if they don't count as "independent words", English has clearly more. I think English is richer in expressions but German can be very precise. As a German having lived in the UK for 14 years and with some language geeks as friends a know a few things about this, however ultimately the question which language has more words is hard to address because the definition what counts is hairy and there are various possibilities. 
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German contains the same obfuscations and different meanings as any other language. Language is not solely about description. 

Why would you think that all languages are the same in this respect? If you look close enough, you can always find differences. I indeed think that German tends to be more descriptive and English works (maybe just slightly) more through metaphors and allusions. The ubiquity of compounds in German has to do with that. A compound is basically a description put together from other terms.


Lewian is right about all this. English has more words but most are synonyms. Think about how many ways you can say big: large, huge, enormous, colossal, gigantic, mammoth, immense, massive, ginormous, elephantine, vast etc. Although there are shades of meaning they basically mean big or large.

In German you have groß, schwer, wichtig and a few others but not nearly as many

Correct that German fuses words together where in English we put a space between compound nouns often: ice cream, television set, repair kit etc even though they are really one concept.

Try learning Navajo or Zulu or Cherokee. Every concept is a particle and can be strung together. In Inuit you can make whole paragraphs into one word. Same with Finno-Ugric languages such as Finnish and Hungarian. English requires a series of descriptive extras to make a word whole whereas there are 50 words for snow in Eskimo! Likewise European language have pretty much been cleansed of higher spiritual terms insofar as they need to borrow from languages to stock the vocabulary. There was no avatar, akashic, Buddha, prana, asana, ayurveda etc before it was adopted into the European vocabulary stock whereas other languages they are woven into the concepts of the culture through words. We have lost those as the occult practices have been held back and only given to those who seek them out in mystery schools. That means that many mainstream languages of the West have been sterilized to fit the agenda of those who wish to create obfuscation. This is a totally different matter in law though. Older English terms which made the language much richer are still used ubiquitously. Archaic terms like whereby and other prepositional constructions as well as a rich lexicon of Latin terms makes legalese much more precise than colloquial English which is indeed more expressive in a conversational manner. German is very much a technical language which is why it is perfect for science and technology.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 16:54
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

there are 50 words for snow in Eskimo!




It's a pervasive myth propagated by Franz Boas circa 1911 who wrote (as an aside), illustrating a point about how languages resemble each other that there are: "four lexically unrelated words for snow in Eskimo: aput 'snow on the ground', qana 'falling snow', piqsirpoq 'drifting snow', and qimuqsuq 'a snow drift'".
Benjamin Lee Whorf added another layer of misinformation in 1940 by claiming Inuit had 7 words for snow. Enter one Roger Brown in 1958 who claimed a paltry three. This rolling ball of specious sh*t now found it's way into the arts via Lanford Wilson's (fifty) in his 1978 play Fifth of July and mainstream media via the NY Times who claimed a lofty 100 in an editorial. I'd love to be a linguist or an anthropologist as they have at their disposal an entire demographic credulous enough to believe and pay them. Yep, the sort of people who take the Tarot seriously.(plus they're about as reliable as fortune tellersWink)


Edited by ExittheLemming - May 21 2020 at 17:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 17:34
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

there are 50 words for snow in Eskimo!




It's a pervasive myth propagated by Franz Boas circa 1911 who wrote (as an aside), illustrating a point about how languages resemble each other that there are: "four lexically unrelated words for snow in Eskimo: aput 'snow on the ground', qana 'falling snow', piqsirpoq 'drifting snow', and qimuqsuq 'a snow drift'".
Benjamin Lee Whorf added another layer of misinformation in 1940 by claiming Inuit had 7 words for snow. Enter one Roger Brown in 1958 who claimed a paltry three. This rolling ball of specious sh*t now found it's way into the arts via Lanford Wilson's (fifty) in his 1978 play Fifth of July and mainstream media via the NY Times who claimed a lofty 100 in an editorial. I'd love to be a linguist or an anthropologist as they have at their disposal an entire demographic credulous enough to believe and pay them. Yep, the sort of people who take the Tarot seriously.(plus they're about as reliable as fortune tellersWink)


Not only a myth but a joke. The joke is that there is no language called Eskimo. It is a family of languages referred to as Eskimo-Aleut languages that covers a spectrum of dialects over the Arctic regions. Since Eskimo can generically refer to Aleut, Yupik, Alutiq, Inuit, Greenlandic and all the dialects, if you add up all the words for snow in all these languages then you will surely exceed 50 but it's kind of a linguists phrase for a helluva friggin lot of words! LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeuhl1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 17:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 17:53
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

there are 50 words for snow in Eskimo!




It's a pervasive myth propagated by Franz Boas circa 1911 who wrote (as an aside), illustrating a point about how languages resemble each other that there are: "four lexically unrelated words for snow in Eskimo: aput 'snow on the ground', qana 'falling snow', piqsirpoq 'drifting snow', and qimuqsuq 'a snow drift'".
Benjamin Lee Whorf added another layer of misinformation in 1940 by claiming Inuit had 7 words for snow. Enter one Roger Brown in 1958 who claimed a paltry three. This rolling ball of specious sh*t now found it's way into the arts via Lanford Wilson's (fifty) in his 1978 play Fifth of July and mainstream media via the NY Times who claimed a lofty 100 in an editorial. I'd love to be a linguist or an anthropologist as they have at their disposal an entire demographic credulous enough to believe and pay them. Yep, the sort of people who take the Tarot seriously.(plus they're about as reliable as fortune tellersWink)

You sound very confident about this, however I don't see in your posting how many words there truly are for snow, and I wonder whether and how you know better than all those whom you Sl*g off here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 18:29
I love how these threads on PA meander all over the place Heart

Part of the reason the 50 words for snow myth has come to be is the fact that Eskimo-Aleut languages are agglutinating languages known as polysythesis. This means that verbs, nouns, adverbs, adjectives and virtually all grammatical particles can be thrown together to make whole sentences, therefore in Siberian Yupik for example the base word for "boat" is "angyagh" and can spiral out into a monstrous word like "angyaghllangyugltuqlu" which means "what's more, he wants a bigger boat."

Given this unique feature amongst these Arctic languages, the exact number of variations of all words meaning snow with all other grammatical particles would result in thousands of variations. As far as base words in each language, who knows.

You can simply check out the number of Eskimo-Aleut languages and the dialects and conclude that the true number of variations of the words that refer to snow could easily branch out into the six figures.


I wouldn't call the idea of 50 words for snow a myth as much as it is an enigma of how other cultures have a much more sophisticated delivery of language than any Indo-European language ever has. I've studied dozens of languages in detail and many many superficially. Some of these Arctic languages are amongst the most efficient in conveying highly complex subject / verb / object relationships with all kinds of nuances attached.

This article is extremely well written and explains this quite well.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/there-really-are-50-eskimo-words-for-snow/2013/01/14/e0e3f4e0-59a0-11e2-beee-6e38f5215402_story.html

Edited by siLLy puPPy - May 21 2020 at 18:35

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 18:39
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

there are 50 words for snow in Eskimo!




It's a pervasive myth propagated by Franz Boas circa 1911 who wrote (as an aside), illustrating a point about how languages resemble each other that there are: "four lexically unrelated words for snow in Eskimo: aput 'snow on the ground', qana 'falling snow', piqsirpoq 'drifting snow', and qimuqsuq 'a snow drift'".
Benjamin Lee Whorf added another layer of misinformation in 1940 by claiming Inuit had 7 words for snow. Enter one Roger Brown in 1958 who claimed a paltry three. This rolling ball of specious sh*t now found it's way into the arts via Lanford Wilson's (fifty) in his 1978 play Fifth of July and mainstream media via the NY Times who claimed a lofty 100 in an editorial. I'd love to be a linguist or an anthropologist as they have at their disposal an entire demographic credulous enough to believe and pay them. Yep, the sort of people who take the Tarot seriously.(plus they're about as reliable as fortune tellersWink)

You sound very confident about this, however I don't see in your posting how many words there truly are for snow, and I wonder whether and how you know better than all those whom you Sl*g off here.


I wouldn't pretend to know better than those who are paid to but I do know cosmiche hippy w*nk when I see it luvvie. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 18:49
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I love how these threads on PA meander all over the place Heart

Part of the reason the 50 words for snow myth has come to be is the fact that Eskimo-Aleut languages are agglutinating languages known as polysythesis. This means that verbs, nouns, adverbs, adjectives and virtually all grammatical particles can be thrown together to make whole sentences, therefore in Siberian Yupik for example the base word for "boat" is "angyagh" and can spiral out into a monstrous word like "angyaghllangyugltuqlu" which means "what's more, he wants a bigger boat."

Given this unique feature amongst these Arctic languages, the exact number of variations of all words meaning snow with all other grammatical particles would result in thousands of variations. As far as base words in each language, who knows.

You can simply check out the number of Eskimo-Aleut languages and the dialects and conclude that the true number of variations of the words that refer to snow could easily branch out into the six figures.


I wouldn't call the idea of 50 words for snow a myth as much as it is an enigma of how other cultures have a much more sophisticated delivery of language than any Indo-European language ever has. I've studied dozens of languages in detail and many many superficially. Some of these Arctic languages are amongst the most efficient in conveying highly complex subject / verb / object relationships with all kinds of nuances attached.

This article is extremely well written and explains this quite well.



Yes, we have diverged from the topic at hand but all said, it's a damn site more fun than debating the merits or otherwise of the Tarot with bewildered hippies. It seems self evident to me that if you choose > 50 from any family of purportedly related languages or dialects you're gonna get 50 different words for the same thing. Bring on the identical twin snowflakes I say Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 18:55
^ read that article i posted. There really are dozens of words for snow and other words in EACH language. The 50 words for snow term has simply been kept in use to demonstrate how languages broaden vocabulary for the reality they evolve in. It's all quite fascinating.

As far as the Tarot, in conjunct with astrology it's a bonafide spiritual science. Although it's not mainstream, most if not all successful people in the world use some form of it. I used to think it was all nonsense until i dug in and had some more detailed readings and i was shocked to find how accurate it all turned out to be.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 19:38
It’s all about psychology, baby !!
Digressing to Voodoo - this is all sbout ingrained fear snd false beliefs within certain cultures, and Witchcraft only works with the administration of toxic substances on an individual. It’s all hoo-ha.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 19:51
I wonder if some language has 50 words for psychology Clown

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 19:53
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ read that article i posted. There really are dozens of words for snow and other words in EACH language. The 50 words for snow term has simply been kept in use to demonstrate how languages broaden vocabulary for the reality they evolve in. It's all quite fascinating.

As far as the Tarot, in conjunct with astrology it's a bonafide spiritual science. Although it's not mainstream, most if not all successful people in the world use some form of it. I used to think it was all nonsense until i dug in and had some more detailed readings and i was shocked to find how accurate it all turned out to be.


I enjoyed the article though I don't pretend to understand its more technical aspects. Thanks for posting this.
However, whenever I see the words spiritual and science joined in holy wedlock I can tell a mile away that it's an arranged marriage that ends in misery and divorce for both parties. Cut to the chase: what the f*ck is testable or replicable about the results of a Tarot reading?Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 20:48
We have over 50 words for snow in English if we allow a looser definition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 21:10
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ read that article i posted. There really are dozens of words for snow and other words in EACH language. The 50 words for snow term has simply been kept in use to demonstrate how languages broaden vocabulary for the reality they evolve in. It's all quite fascinating.

As far as the Tarot, in conjunct with astrology it's a bonafide spiritual science. Although it's not mainstream, most if not all successful people in the world use some form of it. I used to think it was all nonsense until i dug in and had some more detailed readings and i was shocked to find how accurate it all turned out to be.


I enjoyed the article though I don't pretend to understand its more technical aspects. Thanks for posting this.
However, whenever I see the words spiritual and science joined in holy wedlock I can tell a mile away that it's an arranged marriage that ends in misery and divorce for both parties. Cut to the chase: what the f*ck is testable or replicable about the results of a Tarot reading?Confused
 

There is nothing in the definition of science that mandates testability or replicability although that is usally the preferred methodology, however as far as spiritual sciences go there are many who have delved into these once esoteric phenomena. Wilhelm Reich for example made discoveries about orgone energy which is equivalent to the East's notion of kundalini energy or prana. There were many Soviet scientists who did great research on pyrmaid technologies and other strange phenomena we call spiritual or supernatural. Spiritual in tandem with science refers to subtle energies that exist outside the realms of our five senses that affect both consciousness and energy fields. The tarot cards are indeed psychological in nature but work in tandem with subtle energy fields that remove blockages and increase flow of chi. There are many such etheric methods that seem to work even if nobody understands exactly why. Gravity was once considered an esoteric force until Newton "discovered" it. What i'm referring to are aspects of nature that remain mysterious but are clearly real.

sci·ence

 (sī′əns)
n.
1.
a. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena: new advances in science and technology.
b. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena: the science of astronomy.
2. A systematic method or body of knowledge in a given area: the science of marketing.
3. Archaic Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.


Don't get hung up on the word SPIRITUAL. It doesn't necessarily connote religion.

spir·i·tu·al

 (spĭr′ĭ-cho͞o-əl)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural: spiritual power.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul: spiritual guidance; spiritual growth.
3. Not concerned with material or worldly things: led a spiritual life.
4. Of or belonging to a religion; sacred: spiritual practices; spiritual music.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 21:16
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

We have over 50 words for snow in English if we allow a looser definition.


Maybe. There's snowflakes, blizzard, snowfall, snowstorm, sleet, snowdrift, snowman and snowball however 50? Maybe if we can use hyphenated words which would be equivalent to Arctic languages do basically.

Piss-yellow-snow
Footprint-snow
Snow-house
Snow-castle

Don't think i could come up with 50 though Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 03:11
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


There is nothing in the definition of science that mandates testability or replicability although that is usally the preferred methodology,
Well, who has the authority to define science?
From Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
Quote
The scientific method is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation. It involves formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings. These are principles of the scientific method, as distinguished from a definitive series of steps applicable to all scientific enterprises.
You may have a broader concept of science, but I as a scientist would still ask anyone who wants their theories to be counted as scientific to derive some nontrivial statements from them that can be tested, and then test them. 


Edited by Lewian - May 22 2020 at 03:12
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