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Woon Deadn View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 14 2020 at 16:29
Not so long ago I have finally learnt how to play the card game of piquet. Defeat the smartphone AI constantly, there's a nice app for Android, at least. 
Anyway, there are several things in piquet that make me confused. 

Like, I don't see much reason in carte blanche and even less so in the optional carte rouge feature. The idea of taking the trick only by the card of the same suit also sounds immature to my mind. 

All in all, I have started creating my own card game that should be more balanced, more reasonable and just. 

What card games do you personally play and what are your likes/dislikes concerning their rules? Wink


Edited by Woon Deadn - May 14 2020 at 16:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2020 at 06:55
I just play Fish and Crazy Eights.  They are both pretty simple.   A friend in middle school taught me a game called Snap.   She won all the games because she had a lot of experience with it. I really don't have any dislikes per se of the rules.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2020 at 10:58
Hi,

Way back when in the 70's and 80's I played in quite a few BRIDGE tournaments. My "surrogate" mom, is a casual bridge player and she won't play with me, because I know too much and see way too much and can discuss the bidding fairly OK. I imagine that she thinks she is being second guessed, which is not the case, but the bidding is about communication with your partner, not sitting there and "taking it".

The best hand I ever played was in a tournament in Portland, where the 2 folks opposite us, thought they were studs and could play a different style of the game, and it involves being able to bid freely with no interruptions, and I pulled a stink bid that blew them out ... they had a grand slam, and got nothing for it, since i did not lose the grand slam points ... down 2 doubled redoubled was less ... meaning ... I took top for that hand and even was given a gold point for the bid. Had an 11 card suit in my hand and the opponents had all the other points. But the stink bid destroyed their communication and they even called a director that watched the hand, and signaled that there was nothing wrong with the bid and I had a justifiable bid.

Complicated game sometimes, but the inability to communicate in a tournament is a KILLER. And you can't panic, like those guys did because you know it's gonna happen sooner or later!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2020 at 11:56
Euchre or Pinochle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2020 at 15:11
I love card games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tichu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbu_(card_game)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skat_(card_game)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus_(card_game)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot_card_games

These are the ones I love most, but I play also smaller ones like
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/56786/kuhhandel-master
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/12942/no-thanks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohnanza
etc. 

I'm interested in rules, and I invented games as a child, but I figured out I'm better at finding and correcting weaknesses in other people's rules than putting together own games. I know a number of game inventors and have occasionally caused some changes in their rules. When playing Barbu we changed the evaluation of the "domino" contract because I realised that with the rules I learned (which are pretty much those given on the Wikipedia page, there are variants) the domino contract is overvalued and can win you the whole game even if you do quite bad otherwise (or the opposite).  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2020 at 15:38
By the way one reason I'm very keen on card games and much more than on things like Chess is that I love games with hidden information, where you have to infer what the opponents' cards are indirectly from what they do, and there is a random element, so you can apply probability, but there can be surprises easily. I don't get much excitement out of everybody-sees-everything games like Chess or Go where ultimately you could compute it all with enough time, but time is limited, so you always know that you could have done better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2020 at 17:17
there is only one card game in which card luck is totally excluded, and that's this one:


there really is no card luck whatever; it is all skills. Friede and I both love this game and are very good at it. it should be a game after your heart, Lewian, because an important part of the game is the bidding by which the players try to tell their partners what cards they hold. there are also certain signals during the actual card play by which the partner can be told what cards you have.

bridge is as complicated a game as chess, and indeed many chess players also play bridge


Edited by BaldJean - May 17 2020 at 17:29


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 01:10
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplicate_bridge
I was going to mention Duplicate Bridge. I've never actually played this but I do enjoy reading the Bridge column in the newspaper as well as Bridge books. I like its fairness and purity. It is the ultimate in fair because your team and your opponent team are playing the exact same hands (even in chess, one player has the first move). It is pure in the sense that unlike Five Hundred, the deck of cards is the 52-card standard deck which are all dealt to the players (there is no kitty), and the value of each card is simply its face-value (there are no bowers or jokers, but there are trumps), and there are no weird bids like Misère. Also, Duplicate Bridge removes from Rubber Bridge points scored for hands containing four or five honour cards (which are purely based on the luck of the draw).
 
However, Bridge has one defect: It needs four players to bid the hands, but only three players actually play the hands.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 02:52
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

there is only one card game in which card luck is totally excluded, and that's this one:


there really is no card luck whatever; it is all skills. Friede and I both love this game and are very good at it. it should be a game after your heart, Lewian, because an important part of the game is the bidding by which the players try to tell their partners what cards they hold. there are also certain signals during the actual card play by which the partner can be told what cards you have.

bridge is as complicated a game as chess, and indeed many chess players also play bridge

I have learned bridge long ago but unfortunately only very rarely had opportunity to play it, so I haven't reached any stage beyond total beginner. (Obviously playing lots of card games makes me a better bridge beginner than most beginners, but still just a beginner.) Reading on "duplicate bridge", this apparently needs a tournament or properly sizeable group, and I don't see myself having that in the near future. Also I wouldn't agree that "card luck is totally excluded" because you're still also scored against people who have different hands, aren't you? The fact that all scores are relative means that there is some standardisation and improved comparability, but still conditions are not the same for everyone, if I understand it correctly. Surely you depend on the way of playing of the opponents on your table compared to other opponents on other tables, although you may not want to call that "card luck". There's probabilities involved, so there's some randomness, no way out of that. Which for me by the way isn't a problem, if anything it's something good. I don't adhere to the philosophy that the best one always should win and shouldn't ever be stopped by fate from winning. Obviously I don't like games in which it doesn't matter much what you do because they're dominated by randomness; there should be a reward for skill at least in percentages, however I think it's more fun to play with players of varying skills (which I usually do as I play with general game lovers, not normally with specialists for any particular game) if a game comes with a fair amount of winning variance.   


Edited by Lewian - May 18 2020 at 02:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 03:13
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Also I wouldn't agree that "card luck is totally excluded" because you're still also scored against people who have different hands, aren't you?

No, because you are ultimately competing against the opponent sitting in your chair at the other table (who has exactly the same hand as you).
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 03:20
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

there is only one card game in which card luck is totally excluded, and that's this one:


there really is no card luck whatever; it is all skills. Friede and I both love this game and are very good at it. it should be a game after your heart, Lewian, because an important part of the game is the bidding by which the players try to tell their partners what cards they hold. there are also certain signals during the actual card play by which the partner can be told what cards you have.

bridge is as complicated a game as chess, and indeed many chess players also play bridge

I have learned bridge long ago but unfortunately only very rarely had opportunity to play it, so I haven't reached any stage beyond total beginner. (Obviously playing lots of card games makes me a better bridge beginner than most beginners, but still just a beginner.) Reading on "duplicate bridge", this apparently needs a tournament or properly sizeable group, and I don't see myself having that in the near future. Also I wouldn't agree that "card luck is totally excluded" because you're still also scored against people who have different hands, aren't you? The fact that all scores are relative means that there is some standardisation and improved comparability, but still conditions are not the same for everyone, if I understand it correctly. Surely you depend on the way of playing of the opponents on your table compared to other opponents on other tables, although you may not want to call that "card luck". There's probabilities involved, so there's some randomness, no way out of that. Which for me by the way isn't a problem, if anything it's something good. I don't adhere to the philosophy that the best one always should win and shouldn't ever be stopped by fate from winning. Obviously I don't like games in which it doesn't matter much what you do because they're dominated by randomness; there should be a reward for skill at least in percentages, however I think it's more fun to play with players of varying skills (which I usually do as I play with general game lovers, not normally with specialists for any particular game) if a game comes with a fair amount of winning variance.   

you are wrong, Lewian; card luck really is completely excluded. let me explain how.

suppose there is an international tournament with 32 nations competing: Italy, the USA, Germany, France etc. each team has two pairs playing in the tournament. the teams are paired against each other, for example USA vs Italy, Germany vs France etc. the teams play in two different rooms, the so-called "open room" and "closed room".

the 4 seats at the bridge table are named after the four geographic directions. in the open room USA will sit N/S against Italy who sit E/W. in the closed room it is the other way round and so on for all other teams. this means there are 16 tables in the open room and 16 in the closed room.

let's say they play a round with 30 boards. each of these 30 boards is randomly generated and then created 32 times. all teams that sit N/S will get the same cards for each round, and of course E/W too. so all teams will have to play the exact same deals in both directions.

the results of these teams for each board will then be compared and rated (with a complicated system I won't go into).

this means that for playing this first round of 30 boards you need 30 times 32 or 960 decks of cards! for the whole tournament you need tens of thousands of decks of cards because all boards will be prepared in advance.

I hope this makes you understand why there is no card luck at all in bridge


Edited by BaldJean - May 18 2020 at 03:46


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 03:39
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

(Obviously playing lots of card games makes me a better bridge beginner than most beginners, but still just a beginner.)
Being an expert at poker will not help you to be a good Bridge player. Neither will being an expert at Rummy. But being a good player of any of the Whist family of games will help with at least the basics of playing Bridge. But even this will not take you much beyond the beginner level.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 04:08
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

(Obviously playing lots of card games makes me a better bridge beginner than most beginners, but still just a beginner.)
Being an expert at poker will not help you to be a good Bridge player. Neither will being an expert at Rummy. But being a good player of any of the Whist family of games will help with at least the basics of playing Bridge. But even this will not take you much beyond the beginner level.
 

Skat, Tarot, and Barbu go some way, certainly more than Poker and Rummy. Obviously I will not have a chance against expert players, but in a round of beginners I should be quite strong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 10:36
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

there is only one card game in which card luck is totally excluded, and that's this one:


there really is no card luck whatever; it is all skills. 
...

Hi,

I lose ... I didn't use the word duplicate!

Well, no matter I have my points from the many tournaments ... and the communication is the difference. One other tournament in Eastern Oregon out of the Mitchel Rotation (28 hands) my partner and I came in 3rd of about 30 teams ... and we only had 2 opening hands each ... but we were smart and clean on defense and were able to communicate enough in bids to get the better results.

Agreed ... luck out the door, and if you complaint about not having the opening hands, in essence, you are losing one of the strongest parts of the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 11:28
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Euchre or Pinochle.
Same.  I think that Euchre is kind of a Michigan thing.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 11:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 13:38
^ ditto. 

Same with Euchre, cribbage, and rummy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 13:42
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Skat, Tarot, and Barbu go some way, certainly more than Poker and Rummy. Obviously I will not have a chance against expert players, but in a round of beginners I should be quite strong.
 
Whether or not any game can help one to play Bridge depends on whether or not the particular skills required to play Bridge can be supplied by the other game. Due to the peculiarities of Bridge, not even closely related trick-taking games would be of much help. For example, one peculiarity of Bridge is that declarer plays not only his or her hand but also partner's hand, which is visible to all players. This single feature of the game has a profound effect on the skill required to play the game. This is because in other games, one doesn't have sufficient control over partner's hand to be able to orchestrate complicated card play sequences that go by names such as "triple squeeze" or "grand coup". These are skills needed by Bridge players that would not be gained by playing other games. Oddly, this limitation applies the other way also. That is, the expert Bridge player with all the sophisticated techniques in his or her armoury would not be able to use those techniques in a game such as Whist because Whist does not provide the control necessary to execute those techniques.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 14:13
Not sure what point you want to make here. I said I'm at beginners level so that is that. I have learned lots of very different games and am good at picking up different elements in a new game pretty quickly. All good games have unique elements and others that are more or less related to other games. The way it works is not "I learnt this-and-that from Tarot, Poker or whatnot, and I just reproduce that and will be a good bridge player". It's rather "learning to learn", to quote Gregory Bateson. You may or may not believe me, it doesn't matter really.

Edit: Funnily I just became aware of your "I was thinking about thinking but it really didn't get me very far." I sense some connection to "learning to learn", and this stuff can take you some way if you do it right. Thinking about thinking taught me where to stop in many occasions, which can be quite helpful. I know I'm digressing...  



Edited by Lewian - May 18 2020 at 14:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2020 at 14:58
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Not sure what point you want to make here.
 
I'm not sure, either. However, I kind of suspect that you and I see the structure of a game in a somewhat similar way.
 
I am definitely not an expert Bridge player, but the structure of the game and the various techniques of both declarer and defence intrigue me.
 
 
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

"learning to learn"
 
Learning to learn is quite important, and I wish I had been better taught that when I was younger.
 
 
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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