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Easy Money View Drop Down
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Originally posted by zeuhl1 zeuhl1 wrote:

While personally I wouldn't include the Police despite an established prog history that goes deep into the roots of the foundation years of the genre and more recent lps with Fripp, I was a bit gob smacked to see a review of Metallica today? How did a thrash band slip past the goalie?
I did buy the Strontium 90 single when it originally came out and bought each Police Lp upon release. But Metallica?
A highly respected collaborator, who i will not name because he left long ago, was very persistent about Metallica's inclusion and could site specific musical samples etc. All of this is probably still on the forum somewhere.
If not for his efforts, I doubt many would have bothered to consider them.

Edited by Easy Money - May 08 2020 at 19:24
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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.....And justice for all (even Master of Puppets to an extent) was something of an instigator for the Prog Metal stuff that eventuated afterwards. They did broaden the horizon, but then so did Suffocation.....
However, i do find it stretching it somewhat for their inclusion here.
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I never had an issue with Metallica for some reason. I was way more annoyed at the inclusion of Queen.

The point about XTC not being here then The Police shouldn't be then that's fair. There are bands from that era that have a stronger case for inclusion that The Police. The Stranglers and Magazine as well as XTC are obvious ones.
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I personally don't get the logic sometimes. Ultimately it seems very arbitrary to me.
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I reckon tou have to have at least one track over 20 mins to be proper prog...simple enough rule...
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

I reckon tou have to have at least one track over 20 mins to be proper prog...simple enough rule...
The Grateful Dead has Dark Star........
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Given the inconsistency of how the definition has been applied for many of the additions in Prog Related, it's hardly surprising that this topic comes up on PA regularly. I've always suspected that the likes of Led Zep, Sabbath, Queen and Deep Purple are here as Max's 'click bait' when the site was in its infancy as an aid to generating more traffic = more advertisers. Reading the sub genre definition today, it betrays in places, signs of a desired solution being worked backwards to arrive at what is hoped will pass off as its equation. For what it's worth, although I adore many of the following artists, I don't believe they belong on PA in any of the existing categories: Talking Heads, Metallica, NIN, Led Zep, Sabbath, Queen, Deep Purple, Roger Glover, John Cale, Japan, Wishbone Ash, 10 CC, the Church, Rainbow. That said, for the site to survive into the future it has to grow, and inclusivity enables that while exclusivity probably hinders that. What I'm also pretty sure about is that most of the current Prog Related stable can be summed up as 'Rock artists that Prog fans like' As far as the OP and the Police are concerned, apart from some of the material on the Synchronicity album I see very little cause to admit them to PA. My favourite classification of music is probably the so-called 'Post Punk' I grew up with but as innovative, prescient and influential as Television, Cure, Talking Heads, the Sound, Banshees, Monochrome Set, PIL, XTC, Devo, Bunnymen, the Fall, Magazine et al were, none of them belong on PA either. The length of the Unreviewed albums list, http://www.progarchives.com/UnreviewedAlbums.asp indicates it's not as if we've run out of fully fledged Prog artists to occupy our attention. Wink



Edited by ExittheLemming - May 09 2020 at 01:51
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Even though they are a very good bands, regardless of track lengths, odd-time signatures, clever instrumentation and whatever cliche is applicable with ‘Prog Rock’ - I find The Pineapple Thief and Radiohead stretching the limit as far as Prog goes.
Though this is a Police thread. They did some very impressive stuff, and I’ve never talked to a Progger that doesn’t, at least, like some things they’ve done.
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:


Yeah so? We already have Tori Amos. Are you ok with that?And she is under crossover prog no less! Oingo Boingo are on here too(under the same category). There are probably others on here as well but those stick out for me. I say this as someone who likes Tori's music too but then again I like a lot of things that aren't prog. If you stopped after Magazine or Television then fine. After that you just got a bit silly. LOL Anyway, for prog related(as others have explained it to me)it's not so much just about lineage but also the sound. The bands I mentioned have very proggish moments. Most of of the ones you mentioned don't. ;)


Nope, I'm not OK with either TA or OB  in X-over. Dead(didn't know the latter was here at all, FTM)

Tori's first few albums were very Kate Bush-like, so I kind of agreed that she could be here in Prog-Related, but the screwed up thing is that the KB-copy is in a more proggy subgenre than the original

As for OB  (didn't know they were founded in 72), there is not even a link though band members and the ratings are stupidly high (clearly the work of fanboysAngry). Since when have they been included?? Confused (I see the first reviews dating from 2013)

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I personally don't get the logic sometimes. Ultimately it seems very arbitrary to me.


It is totally that, of course. But clearly the thinking of: "If X is in, then Y or Z should be in" has always been +/- denied as a logic for PA inclusion.
PF was caught in this ill-logic. We analysed the a couple of DCD albums were Prog Folk enough to be worthy of the label, but considering the rest of their discography, certainly not enough to be in PF. So we had asked to have them in Prog-related, which was refused. In restrospect, I think DCD's inclusion is a big mistake.







Edited by Sean Trane - May 09 2020 at 03:56
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For all intents and purposes - Kajagoogoo could be Prog Related thanks to Nick Beggs being a hot-shot name in the Prog world, and the band’s experimental electronic piece entitled ‘Introduction’, which would’nt be out of place on any 80’s Prog-Electronic work.

Edited by Tom Ozric - May 09 2020 at 04:04
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Given the inconsistency of how the definition has been applied for many of the additions in Prog Related, it's hardly surprising that this topic comes up on PA regularly. I've always suspected that the likes of Led Zep, Sabbath, Queen and Deep Purple are here as Max's 'click bait' when the site was in its infancy as an aid to generating more traffic = more advertisers. Reading the sub genre definition today, it betrays in places, signs of a desired solution being worked backwards to arrive at what is hoped will pass off as its equation. For what it's worth, although I adore many of the following artists, I don't believe they belong on PA in any of the existing categories: Talking Heads, Metallica, NIN, Led Zep, Sabbath, Queen, Deep Purple, Roger Glover, John Cale, Japan, Wishbone Ash, 10 CC, the Church, Rainbow. That said, for the site to survive into the future it has to grow, and inclusivity enables that while exclusivity probably hinders that. What I'm also pretty sure about is that most of the current Prog Related stable can be summed up as 'Rock artists that Prog fans like'


Yes, I suppose it could be viewed that way LOL

Indeed, M@X's inclusiveness and his will to have dfull discographies included (thus pushing Miles' Kind Of Blue in the DB) was dictated by this click-bait (in french we say "putaclick" - read pute-à-click - whore-click enticing). It's got it pros & cons, attracting attention to the wider public, but also angering the purists.

- Sabbath & Purple being here on different grounds (mainly their very early works)
I suspect that if the DP entry was called: Deep Purple MkI and entered in proto-prog, it wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. Similarly if  Sab's entry only contained the first two albums and Bloody Sab (with Wakeman), it would gain credibility. I know I'm the creator of the latter entry (I was approached by Easy Living and M@X to worry abpout it), but I had the hope that one day the Prog-related sungenre we created, the bands included wouldn't have been listed in the alphabetical order of the DB (having its own separate alphabetical list.

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

As far as the OP and the Police are concerned, apart from some of the material on the Synchronicity album I see very little cause to admit them to PA. My favourite classification of music is probably the so-called 'Post Punk' I grew up with but as innovative, prescient and influential as Television, Cure, Talking Heads, the Sound, Banshees, Monochrome Set, PIL, XTC, Devo, Bunnymen, the Fall, Magazine et al were, none of them belong on PA either. The length of the Unreviewed albums list, http://www.progarchives.com/UnreviewedAlbums.asp indicates it's not as if we've run out of fully fledged Prog artists to occupy our attention. Wink


Yup, we agree (and I think that's the same for a vast majority of the members).
Most of these controversial additions were clearly done by personal agenda by a single or coupkle of members.

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

For all intents and purposes - Kajagoogoo could be Prog Related thanks to Nick Beggs being a hot-shot name in the Prog world, and the band’s experimental electronic piece entitled ‘Introduction’, which would’nt be out of place on any 80’s Prog-Electronic work.


Wasn't this the case for Roxy Music and Brian Eno?






Edited by Sean Trane - May 09 2020 at 04:32
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I think you’d find eatly Roxy as ‘Prog’ (really, try to classify their art....) Eno IS a prog artist.
I love Japan, and Sylvian, Karn etc... They atre stupendous artists at what the they do. Not ‘Prog’ as most know it to be.

Edited by Tom Ozric - May 09 2020 at 04:41
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Had to check it out before posting this, but I'm glad Devo (OB's main early musical influence) never got included Dead

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

I think you’d find eatly Roxy as ‘Prog’ (really, try to classify their art....) Eno IS a prog artist. I love Japan, and Sylvian, Karn etc... They atre stupendous artists at what the they do. Not ‘Prog’ as most know it to be.


Yes for Eno being here, and there is a slight case for Roxy as long as Eno is in the band (first two albums, but especially FYP), after that they become a toy for Brian Ferry's croonership. Dead





Edited by Sean Trane - May 09 2020 at 04:54
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^ Yes. And Devo, esp. Duty now for the Future should be very related to Prog. I don’t mind if they aren’t, I get it, but they were terrific at this point. Split Enz, as a very valid example, there you go.

Edited by Tom Ozric - May 09 2020 at 05:31
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Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

^ Yes. And Devo, esp. Duty now for the Future should be very related to Prog. I don’t mind if they aren’t, I get it, but they were terrific at this point. Split Enz, as a very valid example, there you go.


Well, for Split Enz, there had been a few rejection, but in face of the insistance, I looked into the band's pre-synthpop-new wave albums. I had no idea that they'd made a couple of proggish albums in the mid-70's and a third one +/- in the mould, so as embarrassing as True Clours & Co are, they're stance here is valid. 
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There’s this genre called ‘Zolo’ ??   I just dion’t get this sh*t....
As for Oingo Boungo - the only couple tunes I’ve heard of theirs is commercial pap.......that and the Simpson’s main tune. Rubbish.   
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Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

There’s this genre called ‘Zolo’ ??   I just dion’t get this sh*t....
As for Oingo Boungo - the only couple tunes I’ve heard of theirs is commercial pap.......that and the Simpson’s main tune. Rubbish.   


Never heard of Zolo either, but I found it on RYM

As for their third album, I kind of like it better, because they've gor a Ska slant (I like MadnessSmile), but that's it

When I listen to their stuff, all I hear is Devo and the future Duran Duran.
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

There’s this genre called ‘Zolo’ ??   I just dion’t get this sh*t....
As for Oingo Boungo - the only couple tunes I’ve heard of theirs is commercial pap.......that and the Simpson’s main tune. Rubbish.   


Never heard of Zolo either, but I found it on RYM

As for their third album, I kind of like it better, because they've gor a Ska slant (I like MadnessSmile), but that's it

When I listen to their stuff, all I hear is Devo and the future Duran Duran.
Sure. I can see that (hear that too). And this discussion is based around The Police.
With Split Enz - sure their first 3 albums qualify as Prog, after all, they had that complex Vaudeville thing happening, and keyboardist Eddie Rayner was in a band playing Yes and Genesis covers in the early 70’s.......
This is all good, but swinging back round to The Police, they were real good, but I’m happy if they stay miles away from this amazing site. C

Edited by Tom Ozric - May 09 2020 at 06:05
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Zolo is a term I first heard around 1999 or 2000 or so which is right around the time I first rediscovered prog on the internet. It's usually applied to quirky bands like Oingo Boingo, Split Enz, Sparks, XTC, The Tubes, Devo and pretty much any artist or band who doesn't fit into a neat little box but mostly stuff that isn't really full blown prog. I've seen Frank Zappa described as Zolo also. I would say it's pretty similiar to art rock but not quite the same thing. There probably is some overlap though. I heard the term about maybe a year ago or so but before that I hadn't heard it in nearly 20 years. It's not super well known term(even among music fans)but it is apparently a real thing.


I just happened across this strange tag on RYM, which contains several favorites of mine - Cardiacs, Gentle Giant, P-Model, even Moonriders. But what the hell is this genre? Some kind of New Wave/prog/buzzysynth hybrid? What albums fall under this definition?

This is how RYM describes it:

The term "zolo" was first coined by Terry Sharkie via his "Zany Zolo Muzik Hour" radio show to describe a cross-section of bands and artists with similar approaches to music. Zolo is characterized by hyper, jerky rhythms, synthesized bleeps and boings, polka-dot percussion, chipper falsettos, zany imagery, and a Zappa-esque sense of humor. While Zolo contains elements associated with Progressive Rock or New Wave, Zolo itself is a creative thread that runs independently of both of these genres.

Finding its beginnings in the 1970s with the quirky prog of Gentle Giant and comic art-pop of Sparks (produced by another Zolo godfather, Todd Rundgren), Zolo reached its apotheosis during the late 1970s and 1980s, with XTC's Go 2, Split Enz's Second Thoughts, and Godley & Creme's L often considered the best examples of the genre. Other albums high in Zolo content include Bill Nelson & Red Noise's Sound-On-Sound, Devo's Q: Are We Not Men? A: We Are Devo!, Wazmo Nariz's Things Aren't Right, Snakefinger's Chewing Hides the Sound and Greener Postures, Debile Menthol's Émile au jardin patrologique, and numerous works by Albert Marcœur. Zolo was particularly popular in Japan, spawning bands like P-Model, ヒカシュー [Hikashu], Uchouten, Wha Ha Ha, 人生 [Zin-Säy!], and Picky Picnic.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - May 09 2020 at 13:49
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I would normally count Roxy Music as art rock. The one song that does sound proggy to me in some way is "The Bogus Man".


Edited by The Anders - May 09 2020 at 14:21
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