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Does bad music exist?

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BrufordFreak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:17
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Does bad music exist? This questions needs to be clarified. It is certainly true that a given piece of music (or even whole genres of music) might not be interesting to you. But that doesn't make the music bad. It just means that the music lacks appeal to you, and this is NOT what I mean by "bad music". Bad music is music that is actually wrong in that it has incorrect notes, chords, rhythms, etc. It is true that individual styles of music have their own rules, and violating these rules leads to music that is regarded as bad by purists of the style. But breaking the rules can also lead to innovation, even creating a new style of music. So the bad music may not be bad after all. Some say that the innovators can get away with breaking the rules because they know they are breaking the rules. However, ultimately this makes no sense because it makes no difference to the final product whether or not a broken rule was deliberate.

The point is that regardless of what any given piece of music sounds like, there will always be someone who likes it. And if someone likes a given piece of music, then it deserves to exist even if no one else likes it. If this is the case, then maybe bad music doesn't exist. What to you think?


This is one of the best discussion threads I've ever encountered here on PA! The original question really hits the elephant in the room! 

If bad music does not exist, then maybe we shouldn't have/don't need one and two star ratings--except to show our personal dislike though in such a disrespectful manner. I bet backs me up here: one and two star ratings are brutal and hurtful and disrespectful of the effort and talent it takes to create an album (or song) (most of the time).

I will share in the OP's opinion that there probably isn't any "bad" music out there. (Lord knows I've been to enough children's recitals and elementary school band concerts to know!)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:19
In my opinion yes. It is not a particular genre or artist however, it is lifeless music. Mainstream artists that churn out these 20+ song albums filled with features and filler for the sole purpose of racking up streams on services like spotify and apple music. That, in my opinion is bad music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:20
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:




This is considered bad by many, but many love it. It actually works for me, call it primitivism. The primitive can be acclaimed.
 
I think this lends support to the notion that bad music doesn't exist (at least in the sense of the OP).
 
 


Edited by I prophesy disaster - April 19 2020 at 15:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:35
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I'd say yes, one could say that it exists in various forms and in various ways, just as bad movies exist like Ed Wood films or Tommy Wiseau's The Room, but in another way those I find good. I enjoy them, they worked for me not just despite the flaws, but because of those perceived flaws.


I do enjoy some "so bad it's good" movies, but I had to give up on The Room. I have tried to watch some scenes, but they are just so awkward and cringeworthy that I feel uncomfortable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:37
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

That somebody exists for every music who likes it is for the moment just an unsubstantiated claim. What makes you so sure that this is true?
 
It's true that I cannot know for certain that every piece of music that has ever existed and will ever exist will have at least one person who will like it, but I have heard some rather extreme music which presumably have at least a few fans out there, and therefore find it inconceivable that there can exist music that is so obscene that nobody could possibly like it. 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:44
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

This is one of the best discussion threads I've ever encountered here on PA!
 
Thank you. Smile
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:48
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

That somebody exists for every music who likes it is for the moment just an unsubstantiated claim. What makes you so sure that this is true?
 
It's true that I cannot know for certain that every piece of music that has ever existed and will ever exist will have at least one person who will like it, but I have heard some rather extreme music which presumably have at least a few fans out there, and therefore find it inconceivable that there can exist music that is so obscene that nobody could possibly like it. 
 
 
 

Extreme music will have its fans, but unremarkable music wrongly (see before) played and badly produced? Or will it only be friends and family who are too nice to tell the band it's crap? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:50
Good and bad are subjective terms. There is certainly consensus in which music can have attributes that enjoy mass appeal.

Established melodies that seem to resonate in our DNA are almost universally deemed pleasurable however traditional musical scales from other cultures may not resonate with anyone outside of any given culture.

Like the Schumann Resonance of the Earth, different styles of music exhibit a unique energetic resonance that some find pleasurable and some find repulsive.

Much like exotic forms of food such as certain stinky cheeses and let's just say bat soup, it very often requires an acclimation to find pleasure in music which initially is deemed as bad.

However it is easy to deem a certain artist bad if the intent is to craft a certain style of music but is inadequate to pull it off and there are tons of examples.

Other artists like The Shaggs (which i've also become enamored with) may have been incompetent in their targeted style of music but somehow exhibited a stylistic change so distinct that it has found a way to switch polarity and therefore works in a totally unexpected manner.

While there are certain artists i despise (Celine Dion, Justin Bieber, Michael Bolton, Miley Cyrus etc) that doesn't mean others who are as musically adventurous don't find pleasure in them.

So to each their own. There are many gray areas between just plain incompetence and unexpected unintentional innovation that finds a way to be good in a way that needs proper acclimation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:57
Another example is this earnest attempt by a Danish centre/right politician in the early 1970's (it was meant as an answer to a protest song about pollution and the wrecking of old houses in Copenhagen). I don't know if anyone actually bought the single thinking that this is good. My parents received it as a joke present at some birthday:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 15:57
I am in a camp in between Drew's and Doug's comments!  I, too, have been to many a new musician's recital (and am only a hobby musician, precisely because it would be lovely to be "good," or even better than "good," but I do this only for my own edification...will save Carnegie Hall for the next lifetime) and been to many shows of music that just doesn't appeal to me (from having to be social for the sake of our tour bus company, in the past).  New musicians, brava, bravo!  Hey, everyone needs to start somewhere, prodigies are not common and even many of them started really young and put in a lot of work before being touted as prodigies.  

On the other hand, I also think that, like Doug, perhaps lifeless music could be called "bad," music.  Of course, "lifeless," can also be in the ear of the beholder, but even widely agreed-upon masterpieces can be played lifelessly, albeit sometimes with absolute perfection.  I, too, find wide swathes of popular music just boring and unmoving, so for me, lifeless.  

And yes, a great topic for discussion!


Edited by Snicolette - April 19 2020 at 15:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 16:08
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the concept of "objectivity" does more harm than good, at least when it comes to music. I'd go so far to say that the "problem" discussed here is basically created by the misguided idea of objectivity. Forget about objectivity and the issue is gone. (Of course you may find it's fun to discuss this (non-)issue and it kills the fun to make it go away, but anyway...)
 
But there is objectivity in music. Although I have not formally studied music, I am aware that in four part harmony, there are correct and incorrect answers. For example, you will be marked incorrect if your chord progressions have any parallel fifths or octaves.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twseel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 16:22
You can only speak of objectively 'bad' in the sense of 'wrong' when an overt observable goal was set and we can observe that it was not achieved. When you are simply presented a record of sounds, you might assume what they wanted to achieve and then conclude that they failed in that, but you never quite now why it was really made (ranging from reasons to natural causes), and so I see this kind of judgement on music as purely subjective, though sometimes also based on assumptions about popular tastes and if the music matches those.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 16:44
I think one needs to make a distinction between bad musicians and bad music. Bad musicians are musicians who lack the skill to reliably produce an intended piece of music, and obviously exist. Bad music can only be judged by the music itself, and not by the musicians who produced it.
 
What about music that is played by a computer? A computer will play a piece of music flawlessly, but that doesn't mean that the music itself is flawless. Interestingly, one of the features of many computer music programs is "humanisation", random deviations from machine perfection.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 17:04
This feel right to quote David Hume, cause this is central to hes writings on taste and how we decidecwhat is beautuful or not judged by our taste.

"Hume argued that the Standard of Taste can be defined as the "joint verdict" of TJ - those who are capable of fully discerning all elements of an artwork with no prejudice - that provides this objectiveStandard."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 17:10
Certainly there is bad music. Horrendous, terrible music. One uses the bad music so that good music can be identified and differentiated. Otherwise, symphonies would abandon Mozart and Bach altogether and opt for whatever crap is currently selling on the charts. I can see it now: 

"The Beethovenfest, which has run annually since 1845, has been renamed. Henceforth, it shall be called the Beyoncefest, and will feature chamber music, choirs and 78 piece orchestras devoted solely to Beyonce and her transcendent and multi-platinum music. We don't know what the previous music director was thinking wasting his time with that Johann dude....or whatever his name was."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 18:04
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 19:24
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Yes. And a lot of it. 
For sure, for sure!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 21:09
If we can't all agree on what bad music is, but nearly everyone has at least some music they dislike, then I think bad music does indeed exist. It's just impossible to get everyone on the same page as to what music is bad. However, most everyone is going to think some music out there is bad, and if bad music didn't exist, I think the number of people who like everything they hear would increase by a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2020 at 02:57
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the concept of "objectivity" does more harm than good, at least when it comes to music. I'd go so far to say that the "problem" discussed here is basically created by the misguided idea of objectivity. Forget about objectivity and the issue is gone. (Of course you may find it's fun to discuss this (non-)issue and it kills the fun to make it go away, but anyway...)
 
But there is objectivity in music. Although I have not formally studied music, I am aware that in four part harmony, there are correct and incorrect answers. For example, you will be marked incorrect if your chord progressions have any parallel fifths or octaves.
 
 


Historically, parallel 5ths were considered inimical to the effective creation of 4 independent voices of counterpoint as you have stated. However, when this is NOT the intention, the device merely emphasizes or intensifies a single melodic voice. Otherwise we wouldn't have Smoke on the Water or a million other riffs (read Metal) that have delighted the planet for the last 50 years or so. It's not lack of note choices that limit the range of harmonies that can be produced by Rock guitar. Rather, it's the heavily distorted signal processing that makes intervals other than 5th and octave usually disintegrate into a fuzzy garbled fart. Yes I know, in a parallel universe (if such are permitted) there is surely a Fuzzy Garbled Farts Archive Tongue

Good idea for a thread Thumbs Up.

There is music that makes absolutely zero sense to me but I certainly couldn't present a cogent argument to justify that it's bad as the musicians are some incredibly gifted and dedicated people e.g free jazz, extreme metal, contemporary christian music, chip-tune music, ambient/noise music, Bro-Country, J-Pop, Smooth Jazz (the list goes on) So no, apart from the unwittingly comedic slapstick of performers clearly missing their purported 'mark', there is probably only music that offends our aesthetic sensibilities and that's everyone's issue to deal with on their own. That said, I still love ripping the sh*te out of Dream Theater (sic) Wink


Edited by ExittheLemming - April 20 2020 at 03:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mascodagama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2020 at 05:55
Of course, if you remove the concept of "bad music" you also have to do away with the concept of "good music" - good compared to what? - at that point there's just "music".

I do feel that value judgment in music, beyond basic questions of technical competence, is subjective. Still, it would make for awfully boring discussions if we didn't all cling to our completely personal opinions on the matter as if they actually meant something Wink
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