Kansas vs Styx

Enchant X wrote: when I was 13 years old I got into Boston and it was the start of my progressive journey there's elements of progression with Boston they aren't obvious but they are there. i've always believed it was Boston who first showed me that music didn't have to be a certain way ! We all started somewhere in our progressive journey somewhere, Boston is where mine started.

Exact same for me, the 4 bands that opened my eyes to music were Boston, Deep Purple, Styx, Kansas

verslibre wrote: SteveG wrote: CHanse97 wrote:  Because, frankly, if I were to sit and use the same nondescript and undefined metric y'all use to say Styx isn't prog, I could probably make the same case that Kansas, Supertramp, and Pink Floyd past Meddle aren't prog either. Fine with me! "A soul intension that's learning to fly."  But seriously, WYWH not prog? Come on.   If Pink Floyd is prog, then Kansas is undoubtedly prog!

Yes I agree. Kansas is prog!

verslibre wrote: SteveG wrote: CHanse97 wrote:  Because, frankly, if I were to sit and use the same nondescript and undefined metric y'all use to say Styx isn't prog, I could probably make the same case that Kansas, Supertramp, and Pink Floyd past Meddle aren't prog either. Fine with me! "A soul intension that's learning to fly."  But seriously, WYWH not prog? Come on.   If Pink Floyd is prog, then Kansas is undoubtedly prog!

verslibre wrote: CHanse97 wrote: verslibre wrote: SteveG wrote: CHanse97 wrote:  Because, frankly, if I were to sit and use the same nondescript and undefined metric y'all use to say Styx isn't prog, I could probably make the same case that Kansas, Supertramp, and Pink Floyd past Meddle aren't prog either. Fine with me! "A soul intension that's learning to fly."  But seriously, WYWH not prog? Come on.   If Pink Floyd is prog, then Kansas is undoubtedly prog!  I'd say that Floyd could be far more easily defined as prog before Kansas is.   I reckon you should give a listen to "Journey from Mariabronn," "Apercu," and "Death of Mother Nature Suite" from Kansas' s/t debut.  Then, from the second album, Song for America, the legendary title track, plus "Lamplight Symphony" and the epic "Incomudro – Hymn to the Atman." If that isn't evidence enough, your ears may deceive you.  Also, a version of "Incomudro" was recorded by Kerry Livgren's pre-Kansas band, Proto-Kaw, and they sound even less commercial. I like Floyd (not everything they've done, but I like them), but they're a glorified psych band, no? Let's be honest, Floyd's music isn't challenging. They have a lot of catchy hits. They're on par with Genesis and Yes in that regard.

Like most people, you're probably hung up on DSotM, which, to me, is more psych than prog. But WYWH and Animals is more prog than psych. Listen again to both. If that's not evidence enough, your ears may deceive you.

Edited by SteveG - February 14 2020 at 12:50

SteveG wrote: verslibre wrote: CHanse97 wrote: verslibre wrote: SteveG wrote: CHanse97 wrote:  Because, frankly, if I were to sit and use the same nondescript and undefined metric y'all use to say Styx isn't prog, I could probably make the same case that Kansas, Supertramp, and Pink Floyd past Meddle aren't prog either. Fine with me! "A soul intension that's learning to fly."  But seriously, WYWH not prog? Come on.   If Pink Floyd is prog, then Kansas is undoubtedly prog!  I'd say that Floyd could be far more easily defined as prog before Kansas is.   I reckon you should give a listen to "Journey from Mariabronn," "Apercu," and "Death of Mother Nature Suite" from Kansas' s/t debut.  Then, from the second album, Song for America, the legendary title track, plus "Lamplight Symphony" and the epic "Incomudro – Hymn to the Atman." If that isn't evidence enough, your ears may deceive you.  Also, a version of "Incomudro" was recorded by Kerry Livgren's pre-Kansas band, Proto-Kaw, and they sound even less commercial. I like Floyd (not everything they've done, but I like them), but they're a glorified psych band, no? Let's be honest, Floyd's music isn't challenging. They have a lot of catchy hits. They're on par with Genesis and Yes in that regard. Like most people, you're probably hung up on DSotM, which, to me, is more psych than prog. But WYWH and Animals is more prog than psych. Listen again to both. If that's not evidence enough, your ears may deceive you.

For me, The Dark Side of the Moon is more art rock/ lite prog rock than psych/space, and Wish You Were Here and Animals I would describe as Art Rock/ Prog Rock and not as psychedelia. I will happily describe earlier albums such as Atom Heart Mother and Meddle as Art Rock Prog meets Psychedelic and Space Rock. Before that I might describe the music using psychedelic as my primary descriptor.

For me Pink FLoyd and Kansas made kinds of Prog and other sorts of music. The dichotomy of calling bands Prog or not Prog often doesn't work for me when bands have a diversity of style and approach. I say often you have to go the individual album level and often to the track level. But I could understand someone saying, say, they don;t think of "The Atom Heart Mother" suite or "Echoes", or "A Saucerful of Secrets" or "Shine on You Crazy Diamond" or "The Embryo" or whatever as Prog depending upon how they use the term. Sometimes people make such such claims without hearing enough of the discography, or understanding the diversity of ways to approach the question "What is progressive rock, and does it have set boundaries?"

if people were to ask me what kind of music Pink Floyd makes, well it would depend on the period. I tend to think of a lot of it as Art Rock primarily.

I'm not keen on Kansas, but of course that has no bearing on whether or not I consider it Prog. I am fine with calling various albums and individual tracks Prog by Kansas, but not all of it (I haven't heard all of it, but I've heard quite a bit, and owned Leftoverture). So is it a Prog band, I'd sooner call it a band that made Prog music and other music, partially because I don't think of bands themselves as Prog. I find that can lead to over-generalisations. I often like to leave pigeon-holing to the pigeons.

Edited by Logan - February 14 2020 at 13:20

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: I think some people who say they don't like Kansas(and or also say they aren't prog) have only heard the hits and are just going by what they have heard on the radio. Anyone who has heard their earlier albums knows they were about as prog as you could get. Saying Kansas weren't prog is like saying Yes or early Genesis weren't prog.

Edited by progmatic - February 14 2020 at 14:18

Logan wrote: SteveG wrote: verslibre wrote: CHanse97 wrote: verslibre wrote: SteveG wrote: CHanse97 wrote:  Because, frankly, if I were to sit and use the same nondescript and undefined metric y'all use to say Styx isn't prog, I could probably make the same case that Kansas, Supertramp, and Pink Floyd past Meddle aren't prog either. Fine with me! "A soul intension that's learning to fly."  But seriously, WYWH not prog? Come on.   If Pink Floyd is prog, then Kansas is undoubtedly prog!  I'd say that Floyd could be far more easily defined as prog before Kansas is.   I reckon you should give a listen to "Journey from Mariabronn," "Apercu," and "Death of Mother Nature Suite" from Kansas' s/t debut.  Then, from the second album, Song for America, the legendary title track, plus "Lamplight Symphony" and the epic "Incomudro – Hymn to the Atman." If that isn't evidence enough, your ears may deceive you.  Also, a version of "Incomudro" was recorded by Kerry Livgren's pre-Kansas band, Proto-Kaw, and they sound even less commercial. I like Floyd (not everything they've done, but I like them), but they're a glorified psych band, no? Let's be honest, Floyd's music isn't challenging. They have a lot of catchy hits. They're on par with Genesis and Yes in that regard. Like most people, you're probably hung up on DSotM, which, to me, is more psych than prog. But WYWH and Animals is more prog than psych. Listen again to both. If that's not evidence enough, your ears may deceive you. For me, The Dark Side of the Moon is more art rock/ lite prog rock than psych/space, and Wish You Were Here and Animals I would describe as Art Rock/ Prog Rock and not as psychedelia. I will happily describe earlier albums such as Atom Heart Mother and Meddle as Art Rock Prog meets Psychedelic and Space Rock. Before that I might describe the music using psychedelic as my primary descriptor. For me Pink FLoyd and Kansas made kinds of Prog and other sorts of music. The dichotomy of calling bands Prog or not Prog often doesn't work for me when bands have a diversity of style and approach. I say often you have to go the individual album level and often to the track level. But I could understand someone saying, say, they don;t think of "The Atom Heart Mother" suite or "Echoes", or "A Saucerful of Secrets" or "Shine on You Crazy Diamond" or "The Embryo" or whatever as Prog depending upon how they use the term. Sometimes people make such such claims without hearing enough of the discography, or understanding the diversity of ways to approach the question "What is progressive rock, and does it have set boundaries?" if people were to ask me what kind of music Pink Floyd makes, well it would depend on the period. I tend to think of a lot of it as Art Rock primarily. I'm not keen on Kansas, but of course that has no bearing on whether or not I consider it Prog. I am fine with calling various albums and individual tracks Prog by Kansas, but not all of it (I haven't heard all of it, but I've heard quite a bit, and owned Leftoverture). So is it a Prog band, I'd sooner call it a band that made Prog music and other music, partially because I don't think of bands themselves as Prog. I find that can lead to over-generalisations. I often like to leave pigeon-holing to the pigeons.

Unfortunately, without labels we couldn't describe the music that these bands make. We have a pretty good idea of what symphonic prog, electric prog, etc. sounds like. If someone says that such and such artist is great, we ask "what do they sound like?" If someone says Avant/RIO, then we have a pretty good inkling of what to expect without referencing an artist that we may or may not be familiar with.

Edited by SteveG - February 14 2020 at 14:36

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Edited by SteveG - February 14 2020 at 14:50