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Easiest way to get music put to lyrics? |
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mcentra 
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Joined: January 19 2020 Location: united states Status: Offline Points: 27 |
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 Topic: Easiest way to get music put to lyrics?Posted: January 19 2020 at 16:11 |
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Hi everyone,
I hope this is in the right forum. Long time Rush fan (RIP Neil) and lyricist here. I am contemplating using whatever means I can to put music to my lyrics myself. My lyrics consist of several concept albums. Although, I don't consider myself a musician, I played drums for ten years way back when and I have created some pieces in logic pro via midi keyboard. I would prefer to recruit actual musicians to do everything but, for a million reasons, I just don't think that is ever going to happen. This is probably a question that has no answer or a million answers, but, if you had complete lyrics to a concept album(s) you really wanted to get music put to and had my level of skills, what would you do? What would be the simplest, straight forward way to get this done without there being a Geddy and Alex waiting there to create music for your words? I'm sure many have felt this way and how helpless it seems when you think you have the material but no collaborators and none in the horizon. Thanks for reading! Edited by mcentra - January 20 2020 at 04:58 |
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dougmcauliffe
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Posted: January 19 2020 at 16:18 |
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Sell your lyrics to hopeful and talented musicians, collect royalties.
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The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes |
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mcentra
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Posted: January 19 2020 at 16:30 |
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I genuinely appreciated the response. I totally get the inclination to try that and I have sent my lyrics here and there. I've shown them to people, have had some wonderful one song collaborations here and there. However, when it comes to looking to other people for getting music for an entire concept album done, I think there is a bit of fantasy and dreaming involved there. In other words, unless you already have a relationship similar to a Peart, Lifeson and Lee, the chances are remote that your concept album is going to get done. I'm looking for the most realistic, easiest and straight forward way to getting it done for someone with my skill level. That means some kind of midi DAW, etc. Edited by mcentra - January 19 2020 at 16:31 |
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Atavachron
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Posted: January 19 2020 at 17:11 |
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It was a real challenge for me too as a guitarist who was mostly interested in doing original material. Putting lyrics to music is hard enough, but putting music to lyrics is an art I have yet to fully grasp. Like many creative artists, sometimes you just have to make things up as you go, discard what doesn't work and hopefully have a few good things left over. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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mcentra
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Posted: January 19 2020 at 17:31 |
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Thanks for your thoughts. It helps knowing other artists go through the same hoops. As far as putting music to lyrics, my first instinct (probably due to being a lyricist) is to think that would be easier than the reverse, especially if the lyricist provides you a guide vocal, which is how I would collaborate. After that,and knowing the general intensity of the song, the music part is pretty much an open ended concept. I think lyrics have the additional burden of having to make logical sense, tell a story, etc. Whereas music, as long as it sounds good, can meander where it wants, you know? There's a little more leeway. Edited by mcentra - January 19 2020 at 17:46 |
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Atavachron
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Posted: January 19 2020 at 17:48 |
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^ Then you had people like Peter Gabriel or John Lennon who didn't write in a necessarily logical or linear way, adopting more of an abstract, poetic approach. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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mcentra
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Posted: January 20 2020 at 04:54 |
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Absolutely. There's certainly some of that in lyric writing. And a lot of times it's damn good. As you mentioned, there's Gabriel and Lennon for that. And look at the Mars Volta lyrics to De-Loused. Wow! Very difficult to make sense out of but man are they freaking awesome lyrics when sung. So yeah, there are exceptions where lyrics don't have to make logical or immediate sense and even great examples when they don't and where it turns out it's even preferable that they don't. Like abstract paintings. So totally get what you're saying. Edited by mcentra - January 20 2020 at 07:10 |
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moshkito
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Posted: January 20 2020 at 11:11 |
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Hi,
I'm not (likely) the best suggestion at all ... but I do think that being able to "see" your inner movie is important, and from your question and comments, I think that you ask too many questions, and are getting ideas from all the places around ... except one ... the one that is inside your head. This was always a problem, for example, with actors on a stage in rehearsal and even in the "lab" where you worked experiments to improve your ability to concentrate and respond ... and sometimes, I think that this is impossible in music, but I am not convinced of that ... since too often, I feel like folks are looking out, instead of in. There is no "secret" that I have ever found, and I can name 100 films, easily, that were about the inspiration that created the art ... and all of them are different and all of them are magnificent, and would help anyone figure out what to try later ... with one option ... when you "get it", the first thing you say is ... I didn't need that! I write a lot, and in my poetry and novels, I do not use "my mind" at all ... I simply "watch" that movie inside my head and write like crazy to keep up with it, last night it stopped with a young girl seeing 20 paintings, all the "same" but the clock of the frame was turned 5% in each one of the pictures, otherwise the same, so by the time you had the last painting, it was almost upside down ... and I had no comments, and the only thing I can remember is the young girl pointing to it ... and asking why the same picture? ... I'll know tonight when I get the movie going again! Things change, and things go ... in many weird ways ... I'm not sure that we all can get anything out of it, since it is not "ours" or a part of you ... Last bit (paraphrased) ... in the Edgar Froese book there is a nice bit about David Bowie, who was struggling on the piano with a song ... and the producer finally told everyone to leave ... look guys, David is looking for his voice in these words ... there is nothing we can do for him ... everyone ... good night ... and he left David alone ... sometimes ... there are no words that we can even give you ... I now say things like ... you gotta find your own voice ... and the rest will be easy!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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mcentra
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Posted: January 20 2020 at 14:51 |
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You're absolutely right. Since I posted this I've been asking myself "How would I do this if I had no help?" And of course, it's very likely there will be no help. At least not in the beginning. I can think all I want about it and ask all the questions I want but none of that is going to get anything done. I The only person who knows how to sing these songs is me. But until now, the only person who knows what music should be put to these lyrics has been unwilling to do so. So the answer is I am going to approach creating music for my lyrics from drums and vocals. I play drums. I have a mic. I'm going to record myself playing drums to recorded tracks of my vocals. This will give me something to build on. Maybe others will become interested after hearing what I have at that point? If not, I know how to use a midi keyboard with Logic Pro. I can then experiment with adding bass and guitars to the drum vocal tracks I create. And were I to get other musicians to help, would it be what I envision in my own head for my lyrics? Probably not. So the only real road to doing this is through myself. Thanks for that. That really clear my head about this all. |
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moshkito
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Posted: January 21 2020 at 03:03 |
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I think the "beginning" is the most important part ... in my case, it was the element of surprise that helped the actors on the stage, and in my imagination ... while directing them ... I did not set out to do what has been considered "psychic exercises" for the actors, but what I did do worked magnificently and it created a communication between the two actors that was way too good ... and one of the actors had never been on stage before ... but his willingness to concentrate and SEEING that he could do it, defined how he did ... really well.
You and I can not sit and prove this ... and you can look at bands like GONG, who had folks doing their own thing, and it worked ... and no one argued with the Witch and her part in the story, no one argued with the wind instruments, and no one argued with the bass being "too bassy" ... (in Mike's own words!) ... as an example ... sometimes, the interplay and allowance of these things to happen, works ... it just does, in ways that none of us can not even conceive ... listening to the title track "YETI" from Amon Duul 2's album, the first thing that you are going to ask is ... how can that be an improvisation? Even I, so experienced in improvisations, will call it a "guided improvisation" where a suggestion and detail might be discussed and handled ... and Miles Davis would likely fit here as he used to suggest .. Bill's turn, then John's turn, then my turn, then Uncle's turn ... and then we come together ... with no idea of what the theme would be when they come together ... maybe a note or two ... but nothing else? Very scary to today's musicians that only know music by the DAW. The other thing to remember ... sometimes the lyrics and wording is the problem ... and you do not have to change the lyrics to something else ... you just have to detail its inflection and usage a bit differently ... and I like to use the example of Carl Palmer in TARKUS when Greg says ... don't give me poop ... and the drumming stops for an accent ... and this is where people fail lyrics ... the drumming needs to be about the words, not the beat ... you have to know what to do when YOU SHOULD NOT BE DOING ANYTHING .... except making your words clear. And it's hard to show this ... but one example that I gave suggestions to, sadly had a drummer that obviously lacked confidence, and did not know how to get off the "beat" and then return to his comfort zone ... the same 4/4 thing. Basically he was not listening to the words or the music ... he was only trying, HARD, to get back to the easy beat ... by signaling with a hard snare hit ... that he wanted to get back to something he was more comfortable with ... because not a single of those snare hard hits makes any sense whatsoever ... and I'm not sure that these folks will ever hear/experience someone like Mani Neumeier (Guru Guru - early stuff specially!) who used to say ... I don't do rhythm ... I'm an electric guitar! AND he just about drives the whole thing ... even when it is experimental and just noise ... or you can use Jaki Leibezeit (CAN) as an example of what to do when transitioning from beat to touch, and then back (Bel Air and Chain Reaction to Quantum Physics) for something that 99 out of 100 drummers are not able to do ... the least possible, and almost nothing ... and sometimes, this helps define lyrics and moments in the music ... THAN ANY LYRICS or otherwise.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: January 21 2020 at 08:04 |
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Another way of approaching this is to play around with melodies in your head - stuff you feel compliments the music at hand. If you already have a somewhat clear idea of what the melodic backdraft should sound like...well then it’s also much easier to convey to other musicians. Be that through a basic hummed melody or perhaps something akin to the same via drums (if you play something like the xylophone this aspect becomes easier methinks).
There are also many different types of electronic music programs out there (free as well), which, once you get your head around them, can act as a similar melodic backdraft. Doesn’t have to be perfect or even good as long as it somehow illustrate what your intention is for X song. All the best from Denmark, cheers  Edited by Guldbamsen - January 21 2020 at 08:06 |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
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mcentra
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Posted: January 21 2020 at 09:43 |
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Thank you. I think what explains my reluctance to tackle the project of adding music to my lyrics is not a lack of those two options but the unreliability of those two options. The first option of course would involve convincing musicians - essentially people with lives of their own-- to take on a big project like that. That's a project in itself. The second option of doing it all myself - an idea I like-- would be a serious financial and logistical maze for me, although probably the more personally satisfying route. In my circumstances, I would have to buy an electronic drum kit and, in general, free myself from several family responsibilities to put myself in a suitable artistic setting where I can work at least semi-undisturbed. Not saying I'm not trying to move toward the second option but it's slow going due to circumstances a lot musicians have to confront and in the meantime of course...nothing gets done. It's annoying more than anything else but also artistically damaging in a sense. Edited by mcentra - January 21 2020 at 09:46 |
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moshkito
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Posted: January 21 2020 at 11:24 |
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I like the idea ... I have to admit that I never really tried to do things by using something else, since in directing you are working with something in front of you, and the only thing I did, really, was making sure that all the parts came together smoothly and helped each other get better. But I did find/do some crazy things ... in the pre-show of one play, I goofed around with the music, and one day the the actor was "warming up" on the music ... and when I saw that it was when I decided that I would have an "open stage" as the audience is coming in, and he was taking steps to the "beat" of the music ... and later you could see him use that in a section of the play as he follows/imitates the king (Escuriel - Michel de Ghelderode) ... and in all honesty, it was one of those things that just happen ... and sometimes you just have to allow them to happen ... In my writing, as mentioned above, even in film and music reviews, it is all 100% intuitive for me ... and there is no "pre-thinking" or "ideas" for the review to rely on ... it's pretty much how I felt about the whole thing, and what I saw ... which, really, is the same thing as writing poetry and my stories ... you just flow with that inner film as fast as you can write it ... and often pieces are missing, but if you have enough, the ability to synchronize and blend the open moments, end up coming together alright ... and this has been one of the tough/hard parts of most work I do ... I have gone back and reworded some sentences and lines for clarity, but have never had to change anything from "the movie" that I saw in my head! This is specially important in poetry, because it is all about the feel in that moment, and it is also the reason why I use the "pauses" all the time ... as they used to be named "thinking pauses" in the days of Harold Pinter in theater (I never found any thinking in there, btw!!!) ... whereas I am merely allowing the visual to spread and help connect to the next line.
Edited by moshkito - January 21 2020 at 11:27 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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flyingveepixie
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Posted: January 28 2020 at 06:04 |
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I would say the answer depends on exactly what you're looking for in your final product. Would it be in the style of some of the longer works of Alex, Geddy and Neil..? Like 2112 or Hemispheres for example..? Does it even have to sound like a Rush album..? Or could it be done in some other style..? Like CTTE or Awaken..? Or along the lines of something Tangerine Dream might do like Force Majeur..? Or would you want a bunch of shorter tracks all coming together to tell a story like on Scenes from a Memory or similar..? or do you not have a preference for any particular style or format as long as the final result just works..? More detail is needed here I think. I might be interested in helping you out myself as I've been scratching around for a new project for quite a while now, although I'll confess that it's always been the other way around for me, setting lyrics to completed music rather than music to completed lyrics, so I don't know : maybe I could help you out and maybe not, but I wouldn't mind having a peek at your lyrics to see where you're coming from with them. Most of the music I've ever recorded has been along the lines of concept material in one style or another ranging from outright metal, to arty BJH style prog and acoustic based power ballads, to pure synth and electronica ala TD or Vangelis. I'm designated as a Crossover artist here on PA. To date I have 12 long form tracks of over 20 minutes each in length, with the longest of them being slightly over 30 minutes, as well as some long(ish) tracks ranging from between 7-16 minutes, and a shed load of shorter songs, comprising completed instrumentals or incomplete songs without lyrics which I haven't yet released and which might never even be released if they don't get lyrics added to them. Over the last couple of years I've started writing my own lyrics for my music as 9 times out of 10 I've found it impossible to match lyricists and vocalists with my songs and gotten so frustrated with trying other people out who just don't get what I need and deliver such a poor performance that I find I often get on better just doing it all myself. Drop me a note if you want to chat further. Edit : so I just read through all your posts and see that you're on the cusp of deciding to go ahead and just do it all yourself. That's great : it's the primary reason I do most of my own work myself - because I've never been able to find the right people who have the ability and the necessary skills to do a good job, or who are willing to work with me on a project which isn't their own, so I get exactly where you're coming from with that. The only real question you have to ask yourself now, and perhaps more importantly to answer honestly, is whether or not you actually have all the required skills on guitar, bass, keys, drums (or drum programming) as well as musical composition, engineering and production skills in Logic - and of course having all the right studio gear to make the whole thing a success..... good monitors which give a true flat response sound for example... Soundcloud, Facebook and other social media sites are littered with the music of those who don't have these necessary skills and/or equipment, but think they do - recording poorly written and poorly played material on iphones, ipads and the like, and being fooled into thinking they're doing something special, amazing, original or different because their so called "followers" tell them they are, but who are really just leading them up the garden path and telling them lies to make them feel good about themselves.....so be honest with yourself and don't fall into that particular trap, and always be as analytical and as critical as you possibly can be with your own work. Anyway, I wish you success.
Edited by flyingveepixie - January 28 2020 at 09:48 |
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mcentra
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Posted: January 28 2020 at 11:16 |
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Great post and Thank you. I think we share a lot of the same frustrations that comes with working with artists who are not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish. :-) While I do still intend to tackle the music myself, as you mentioned, it's going to require assembling the right equipment for myself. That's awhile away so I've hit upon an idea of still offering up my lyrics for musical collaboration with other musicians with the idea that I will also attempt to create alternate music myself for the lyrics further down the line should I determine any other treatments have not quite hit the mark. I have also observed similar odds to those you mentioned for successful collaborations...about 1 in 20 work out. So on that note, I don't see how it would hurt to share a link to my lyrics. I'll send it to you in a direct message to avoid spamming the forums. The odds say our ideas won't mesh but at least there will be no illusions in sharing our work. Edited by mcentra - January 28 2020 at 11:48 |
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moshkito
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Posted: January 29 2020 at 07:51 |
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Having done a lot of directing in theater and some work in film with actors, it is "weird" to me, to think that you know and have an idea of what you want the final product to be ... because this changes in the process of creation and elevation of the material to a certain point ... and eventually ends up being about "something else" that you and I have not thought about, or expected ... sort of like the stories about "Friday Night" audiences in theaters ... when you have no idea what they are going to react to, or laugh at, or groan ... and many actors, and musicians, end up STUCK ... not knowing how to react when they are expecting something in that spot ... HOWEVER ... this would not be the case with someone playing the same song for the 700th time ... in which case, he probably doesn't care about the reactions ... you can even ask Jimmy about that ... he will tell you it's not about the reaction ... it's about how he's playing and he can't make the changes at the moment ... he's frozen inside another moment doing something else. I do not, HONESTLY, have a good idea of how to work lyrics into a piece of music, but then I don't see Vangelis or Mike Oldfield worry about lyrics a whole lot, either ... and the best example here is the one from Edgar Froese's book about David Bowie, when everyone was sent home with David struggling at the piano with some lyrics ... and Tony V says that David had not "found his voice" in this song yet ... so rehearsals were over ... and he will let David do his thing until he finds it ... and sometimes, I think this is what is needed ... you have to do this alone, not pressured because someone else is there ... or vice versa ... and then you find folks that have a very good free form "beat poetry" style ... Daevid Allen and even Gilly, were magnificent at this, and they could light up any moment ... and did ... EVEN in conversation! One last bit here ... and it was something about Gilly that was special ... it wasn't the "lyrics" for her ... it was the mood and the feelings ... and she says that she merely allowed the feelings to come out and express them as needed or worked during that moment ... and that's where "lyrics" can be a problem for someone writing a "song" ... it is easy when you know that it has 12/16 meters, but when it is longer, this is another story! THEN, I would think that the lyrics have to help the music and the music HAS TO SUPPORT the lyrics ... not just be another one of those ... just use a major here to make it happier and ... over there we will do a minor since the words are sad ... kind of thing ... you have to expand this better and DEFINE, when the feeling flies, and when the music flies ... since it is rather RARE when you see both do so at the same time ... something very visible in the psychedelic days, but has lost its way and "theme" since the mid 1970's ... One last detail ... and this is interesting ... THE DOORS ... you know they were film majors ... at least a couple of them were ... and guess what the lyrics of their songs are ... VERY VISUAL and they are sung like IT IS REAL ... and this is something that you might study a bit and define better in your music ... allow the VISUAL TO DEFINE THINGS A BIT MORE ...however, you must remember one thing ... what you see, what you want and what you find, AND what the audience finds on Friday Night, and the audience finds on Sunday Night ... are 5 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS AND RESULTS ... and this means that you have to concentrate on your "completeness" as a piece of music ... and you have to forget everything else ... Lovely subject, but really difficult to define and study ... since a lot of the answers are in the variable area ... and something that is really difficult ... but if you ask Mick how he finds lyrics ... he says ... it was right for that guitar part!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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flyingveepixie
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Posted: January 29 2020 at 08:20 |
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Yes I understand that concept. A lot of my own songs have been started with something specific in mind and finished up as something entirely different, and occasionally as something completely unexpected which would never have occurred to me at the start of the writing process...
Edited by flyingveepixie - January 29 2020 at 08:30 |
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Meltdowner
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Posted: January 29 2020 at 08:23 |
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My problem is the contrary, I have many musical ideas and I can play them reasonably well but have absolutely no writing skills so my music is all instrumental. I'm looking for collaborations and I can't find any musicians nearby so feel free to PM me, I'll see what I can do. You can check my stuff on the link bellow although I improved a lot overall since my last album.
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moshkito
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Posted: January 29 2020 at 09:20 |
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I'm gonna thrown an elephant at you!  Now that the music is done, if you sit and close your eyes, when you listen to it ... 1. what do you see? 2. what do you feel? And your answers are very important ... since you might say you don't see a whole lot, except one thing ... that dag part by that 2nd clarinet is stupid ... but ... guess what? ... only you can hear that, I can't! The 2nd one is harder ... because you have to separate yourself from what you wrote ... if you hear this for 10 minutes and all you see is a sunset while you are at the beach laying down and your dog is goofing around a little bit and then coming back to lay down next to you ... kind of thing ... now you have some "continuity" to a theme, that is not NOTE RELATED or MUSIC RELATED .... it is VISUAL ... and your ability to add some lyrics here are easier ... for me anyway. I do "sound experiments" on my VST synths, and create poetry on top of it, and it is the SOUND of it that brings out the words, and I have to take care and not "edit" anything, so I can develop the feel of the words during that moment, INSTEAD OF INHIBITING IT with thoughts, ideas, doubts, concepts and what not ... at that moment, the clarity of the feeling is all that is important, and developing that is important ... it will help you later to define lyrics and moments in your own work, and how you use them ... but this is a different process than Mick's who merely finds words that fit a certain beat or jump or this or that which took place in rehearsal (or concert) that he memorized and then they developed a song around it and his lyrics. However, HOW many rock bands (specially) write lyrics ... is insane and crazy ... and you might as well start with Frank Zappa ... and all you gonna learn is ... it doesn't matter what you do ... it only matters how you mix them up, because anything/everything can fit in one way or another. One recommendation ... pay attention to the singers that are more "actors" than they are singers ... they are not about "notes" as much as they are about feelings ... and 2 of the best? Christian Decamps (Ange) and Peter Hammill (Van der Graff Generator) ... and then one of the best poets in music ... Roy Harper ... and the turkey goes on stage and does things almost completely ad lib! |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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AZF
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Posted: January 29 2020 at 09:47 |
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Another hurdle is even if you do find the right people, the musical landscape has changed. People aren't buying albums and poring over them like they did in the halcyon days.
Not to say give up. But if you perform it and gets some applause (because it's finished?) don't go down the bitter "Wouldn't know good music if it bit them" excuse at the audience. Rock is in a seriously critical condition. PROG is even worse. I know that remark will cause a list of modern Prog bands, but how many of those are selling huge numbers? How many are selling to at least cover the costs of the electricity to play and record the music? Even Poetry, that's in a worse state. Go to any bookstore and pick up a modern book. Look at the huge blank spaces underneath the few lines of words. Look at the size of the page, look how tiny the font is and then look at the price. Add me to the list of doubters if you want, but the landscape has changed. It's not coming back. It's easier to connect with musicians thanks to the Net. But also thanks to the Net it's nigh on impossible to get the attention of people to listen to more than a minute. "If you're any good... You'll be discovered" is bullsh*t on a level with teeth under pillows. Carry on with it. Hope you get something together. But the interest just isn't there. Music as a hobby, at least interesting and fun. But as a career? Those days done. |
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dougmcauliffe wrote: