God

Not to be glib, but if there is a Creator God à la the God of Abraham, why doesn’t he reveal himself more clearly to us, especially if he wants us to worship him?

Jaketejas wrote: Quinino wrote: We are imperfect mortal beings and hopelessly alone in the world (and we all live with the conscience of that inescapable human condition, more or less deeply ingrained, of course, it varies greatly)  - humbly believing there's an entity that personifies an ideal we should compare us to and try emulate, well, many of us can and do use that faith - of any flavor, choose one - to drive across this valley of tears the best we can (results may vary hahahha !!!) But do you understand the reasons why you decided to choose the path that you did? "Because of my parents ..." was not a satisfactory answer for me. I needed to be able to rationalize, as far as I could go, which path I decided to choose. Some people just choose with their hearts. For me, it had to be a bit of both ... rational thinking and heart.

patrickq wrote: Not to be glib, but if there is a Creator God à la the God of Abraham, why doesn’t he reveal himself more clearly to us, especially if he wants us to worship him?

Sean, you may be right, religion and war exist since ... well, ever - and we are in deep trouble (like we didn't already know it): recent studies point to our mind being wired to make us believe instinctively in the supernatural, it seems right from the cradle actually.


Edited by Quinino - June 26 2019 at 11:02

One point I made is that whether or not you believe in God is purely a matter of faith. That cuts both ways (faith that there is God or faith there is no God) because one can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God from scientific measurements. However, you may (if you so choose) rationally infer the existence of God from conscience, from the fact that there should be a basis for good and evil (otherwise you must provide an alternative), as well as other arguments.

Existential singularity.

/\
Wait .... Cosmic Background Consciousness ....

Is that the new Yes album?

patrickq wrote: /\ Wait .... Cosmic Background Consciousness .... Is that the new Yes album?

patrickq wrote: lazland wrote: patrickq wrote: Not to be glib, but if there is a Creator God à la the God of Abraham, why doesn’t he reveal himself more clearly to us, especially if he wants us to worship him? Sorry, but that is an extremely glib statement. You are not the child in the avatar, and you must know this. Put simply, those who profess the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic faiths, i.e. Abrahamic faiths, would tell you, in no uncertain terms, that God has, indeed, revealed himself to us clearly, either by the gift of Torah or the words of the prophets, the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, or the literal last word of God as spoken to Mohammed. I didn’t mean to be offensive. To put it another way, God could have revealed himself more clearly than via scripture which necessarily requires interpretation.

patrickq wrote: lazland wrote: patrickq wrote: Not to be glib, but if there is a Creator God à la the God of Abraham, why doesn’t he reveal himself more clearly to us, especially if he wants us to worship him? Sorry, but that is an extremely glib statement. You are not the child in the avatar, and you must know this. Put simply, those who profess the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic faiths, i.e. Abrahamic faiths, would tell you, in no uncertain terms, that God has, indeed, revealed himself to us clearly, either by the gift of Torah or the words of the prophets, the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, or the literal last word of God as spoken to Mohammed. I didn’t mean to be offensive. To put it another way, God could have revealed himself more clearly than via scripture which necessarily requires interpretation.

If God exists and created the universe, then God probably exists outside the universe. I would imagine that such a God wouldn't want mere automatons, and thus why there is, to an extent, free will to choose to do good or evil. When we talk about what is good or what is evil, people mention love and kindness are always good and anger is always evil. But, as I mentioned before like a long playing record, this is not so. Dudley's mother in Harry Potter loved him so much, she spoiled him and was incredibly unfair to Harry. So, love is not always good. If I'm so kind to someone that I do their work for them so they don't learn, then that person is cheated of an opportunity to gain experience so kindness is not always good. If I get angry and stand up to a bully who is picking on someone for their beliefs or lack thereof, then my anger is justified and good. So, good and evil have to do with applying those aspects at the right time and place. Then, if God exists, the best way to show what is good would probably be, I rationalize, for God to provide (or have provided) humanity with an example, so that we could truly understand the nature of good and evil. And, what is the ultimate good one can do for another? Think about it. It seems you assume that the nature of God, if such a God exists, is for humans to check their brains at the door and become adoring automatons. If God exists and made you with all your great qualities (for example, taste in music), don't you think such a being would be deserving of a bit more credit?

Logan wrote: I tend not to use the term evil, because of certain connotations.  I use the terms well-being and suffering more. If anger leads to a positive outcome, and ultimately minimises suffering and promotes well-being, then I might well see it in a positive light, but that itself is a complicated topic.  In consequentialist normative ethical theories (a form of utilitarianism), one can only judge the rightness or wrongness of an action by its consequences.    In deontology, the morality is based on sets of rules rather than the consequences of an action. In classic "the problem of evil" territory (one of the first things I studied in Philosophy), if God is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient, why is there so much suffering in the world (and according to some views, in the afterlife too)?  Evil need not just refer to human actions, but also to things like natural disasters and illnesses. If God had revealed himself clearly (let's say to people generally), then we wouldn't have so many religions, and sometimes warring sects within religions, conceptions of God and Gods, nor would be have atheism (both positive atheism and soft atheism).   In term of the Abrahamic God and revelation, I have read the Old and New Testament, the Quran, and studied related texts, and God and his will is not revealed clearly to me, and I see contradictions (and obvious one between the Quran and certain Biblical interpretations is whether Jesus is God).  There is variance in what is true and claimed to be Gods word.  I do wish all firm Christians would read the Quran and all firm Moslems would read the Bible. By the way, if a God exists, it may or may not exist outside of the universe, it may or may not exist outside of our local universe but in the greater cosmos, or it may not be possible for God or Gods to exist at all depending on the conception.   There have been more than a thousand gods, and  a huge many hypotheses about the nature of a God. Jaketejas wrote: One point I made is that whether or not you believe in God is purely a matter of faith. That cuts both ways (faith that there is God or faith there is no God) because one can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God from scientific measurements. However, you may (if you so choose) rationally infer the existence of God from conscience, from the fact that there should be a basis for good and evil (otherwise you must provide an alternative), as well as other arguments. I don't see it that is way or see it as a simple dichotomy.  I don't believe in God, in other words I am not convinced that God exists, but I also don't claim that God does not exist as I am not a positive atheist (someone who not only does not believe in God but also states that God does not exist).  My lack of belief is not a position or article of faith.  I don't believe in Zeus or Thor other than as a concept/ characters/ part of mythology..., but I'm not making a positive claim to the non-existence in the terms where we tend to talk about the existence of a God or gods. On a tangential note, one of the worst claims I have heard as "evidence" for God has come from some Christians:   "I know that God exists because it says so in the Bible." "Why do believe in the Bible?" "Because it's the word of God". I have often heard circular reasoning and begging the question arguments used to claim the position that God exists.

I agree that many people use circular arguments. I hope my arguments are anything but circular for the possibility of God, and the idea that either way (belief or disbelief) is purely a matter of faith. I cannot see your logic for choosing wellbeing and suffering as a basis. The reason is that they are states. I can rationalize a person who breaks into someone's home, steals their stuff, commits acts of atrocity on the family, and leaves with a tremendous sense of wellbeing. To me, that's evil. I can imagine a firefighter who enters a crumbling building to save a child, gets stuck, suffers and dies. I call the act, despite the suffering, one of good. I don't think we've mentioned any one particular religion because we haven't cleared the hurdle regarding the philosophy of moral law.

If a creator God exists, then if such God created the universe, it stands to reason that such a being exists outside the confines of our known universe, at the very least at the point of inception. Of course, if such a being exists, that being could certainly intersect with the creation. But, trying to detect such a being by scientific means seems to me like an exercise in futility. If such a God came down and made known intentions point blank to every person, then that would seem to me to be taking away from free will.

How such a God might handle the various religions is really beyond the scope of my understanding.

What people who call themselves Christians say regarding the basis of their beliefs is entirely up to them, but I have put forth what is, for me, a rational explanation for the possibility of the existence of God and what such a God might be like. And, I have done so without mentioning any religion, or beating up on any one religion.