God

You are right. We probably shouldn't say words like must, but in logical reasoning it happens. My bad! The reason I say that if a creator God exists, should be outside the universe is because the assumption is that God created the universe and therefore, how could the creator God exist solely within the creation, especially at the point of creation? Yes, the creator God may be able to intersect the creation once it is created, but to create within the creation at the onset seems illogical. As a result, I find it an exercise in futility to try to detect God with scientific instruments. Perhaps you have another view?

BaldJean wrote: Logan wrote: BaldJean wrote: t seems to me that you have a kind of odd definition of God, at least in my opinion. you seem to think that God would have to be some kind of extraneous phenomenon and in contradiction to the laws of physics or at least in contradiction to scientific thinking. but that is not so at all. somehow you remind me of a certain joke: a very pious man is out with his boat which somehow acquires a leak, and he is about to drown. being a pious man he prays to God to rescue him. a ship appears, and the captain offers to take him aboard, but he says: "no, God will save me". a helicopter appears with a rope ladder to save him; again he says: "no, God will save me". a fisher boat appears to rescue him; again he says: "no, God will save me". finally he drowns. after his death he meets God and complains to him: "I am a pious man and prayed for your help. why did you not save me "? answers God: "I sent you a ship, a helicopter and a fisher boat; what more do you want"? You got me wrong, I'm not an absolutist and would never say that God must be this, or must be that. There are many different definitions of god, and I don't work with just one. We had a very long conversation/ semi-debate on this before some years ago (unless it was Friede), wish I could remember the thread, but I guess I didn't make myself clear enough on my beliefs and non-beliefs.   Because I married a born again Christian, I often do operate in the context of what they've told me about about what they think God is, but I know many different people have different ideas. Personally, I think that if there is a God, then God would be part of the "natural" universe or multiverse and tend to prefer the Spinoza conception of God. what I tried to tell you with my joke is that although by your own admission you had some experiences that could be called "revelational" you steadfastly stick to them being just some by-product of your brain. I am actually quite certain that even if God appeared right in front of you and told you he existed (not that this would be consistent with my concept of God; I only say this to bring a point across) you would still not be convinced. I may be wrong with this, but to me it appears as if for some reason the thought of a divine being frightens you and you have to call out "no, no; just a product of my brain" to reassure yourself. however, is ascribing such strange powers to the brain really consistent with the method of Occam's razor?

I liked the joke, and earlier in the thread I wrote something myself that could relate to that somewhat. It's not that witty because I wrote it:

"It certainly might seem ungracious to pray hard for a sign and then casually reject it.

The setting: a sunny day in parched lands. Moses wanders alone.

Moses: "Yahweh, give me a sign!"

God conjures up a rainbow

Moses: "I don't find that sign very convincing. It could be a natural phenomenon. Give me another sign!"

God sets a bush alight

Moses: "That could still be down to natural causes. Give me another sign!"

God: "Oh for heaven's sake!" [strikes Moses down with lightning]

Moses [badly singed]: "Yeah, I think that will do, erm even if it... [Moses thinks better of it as thunder rumbles] No, never mind, that will do very nicely thank you.""

I've thought about what it would take to convince me, and I can't say with certainty without experiencing it, but I have quite a few ideas. Having what seems to be God suddenly appear to me and do something that seems truly miraculous would be more convincing to me than getting a phone call from someone claiming to be God telling me that my computer is infected with the Satanvirus, but he will cure it if I give Him remote access and asks for my credit card number.

I certainly wouldn't automatically dismiss it if it seemed amazing, especially if I thought it could be verified, and if God and I hung out (like not just in my head) and he became a regular feature in my life and shared some of the secrets of the universe with me (not like, hey read the Bible, but more "here's an equation that will astound all of the physicists and through osmosis here's what it means"), I think I'd accept it (not with absolute certainty as I hold no position with absolute certainty, and I don't need to to believe that things are true). It still might not be God....

If God appeared to me, and there was no later evidence beyond that experience to determine that it was more than a product of my brain, or extraterrestrial aliens with sophisticated technology pretending to be God, that someone had drugged me etc., I would at the least have doubts. I might be convinced at the time, but then think of other possible reasons why it might have happened.

While I hold no position with absolute certainty, I do think that I could be convinced given the right conditions and hold that conviction. I'm not a solipsist, let alone a hard solipsist, but I don't even know with certainty that more exists than me etc.. Perhaps I am God, but I've never given myself the right sign, but I digress.

It would depend on the circumstances, but after seeing a vision of what appears to be God, and choosing between hypothesis 1: It really was a God, and hypothesis 2: It was a hallucination, I do think that number two would be more likely and require the least assumptions.   I've had what I believe to be hallucinations before, both when I had high fever, and when I've taken hallucinogens such as LSD, but I have never found so-called evidence for the existence of God compelling (like, hey, a rainbow, that's evidence and proof that God exists -- I've heard that from someone). Hey, the God vision could be an acid flashback or I might have dreamed it. Now if I was with others and we shared the experience, that would be much more convincing. Or if God came to me in a dream and gave me the knowledge to cure all forms of cancer and I remembered it after waking up and it worked, that would also be quite convincing. It still might not be God, it could be aliens, some hidden brain-power, or something else.

Depending on the nature of God, I am not afraid of there being a God. I don't like the idea of a God that demands eternal worship or sends non-believers to hell, as well as damning those who don't believe in a particular religion. I'm not keen on the Abrahamic God as stories go. Other conceptions I find far more pleasing. But what I would like doesn't make one conception more likely than another, or maybe it does for me. Who knows? I would like there to be a wonderful afterlife. I would rather not think that this is all we've got. I don't like the idea of eternal torment so much. I would like to believe in a kind and loving, and possibly sexy, God. By the way, I do have some God fear built in, as just writing sexy there made me nervous. I've never managed to shake certain fears that come from some religious upbringing.

Edited by Logan - June 20 2019 at 13:54

BaldFriede wrote: Tillerman88 wrote: Jaketejas wrote: I think we value many of the same things. I'm not a statistician per se, although I apply statistics in my analyses. I think where we may or may not differ is that when we talk about kindness, love, anger, etc., I believe that these qualities are neither good nor evil. What I think is good is applying love at the right time, applying kindness in the right way, ... even anger. A mother who loves her child so much that she smothers and spoils him to the point of his becoming a spoiled brat is not doing good. A soldier angry at an enemy who is committing moral atrocities is justified in that anger. So, moral law and good and evil are not just emotions or qualities to be sought after. Whether or not an emotion or quality is good or evil depends on the context in which it is applied. Sometimes the good action is the one that does not result in a better world for you, but it is the contrary one where you take the brunt in place of someone else. So, I think that there must be a basis for this right and wrong. The conscience does it's nudging, but is not itself the basis. And, that is just about as far as my reasoning can take me.   Your quite good points here steered me to joining in on this discussion. Your thoughts clearly evidenced that logical reasoning doesn't imply good sense (something often lacking in today's "moral laws" as well as in the way laws are put in practice), a lack that often occurs when rational thinking is taken to the extreme. If by "good sense" you mean "common sense" I have to answer you with Albert Einstein: "Common sense is nothing but a collection of prejudices acquired by age 18" (original German quote: "Gesunder Menschenverstand ist eigentlich nur eine Anhäufung von Vorurteilen, die man bis zum 18. Lebensjahr erworben hat").

Edited by Tillerman88 - June 20 2019 at 14:56

Edited by Tillerman88 - June 20 2019 at 16:01

I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "taking rational thought to the extreme." Can you please elaborate? My exercise in rational thought was to try to help me figure out what I believe without leaning on preconceived notions. Rational thought took me only so far but nevertheless the journey was worth it. I'm not as wishy washy in my thinking as before, although I still don't have answers to many questions.

YESESIS wrote: "The setting: a sunny day in parched lands. Moses wanders alone.  Moses: "Yahweh, give me a sign!"  God conjures up a rainbow  Moses: "I don't find that sign very convincing. It could be a natural phenomenon. Give me another sign!"  God sets a bush alight  Moses: "That could still be down to natural causes. Give me another sign!"  God: "Oh for heaven's sake!" [strikes Moses down with lightning]  Moses [badly singed]: "Yeah, I think that will do, erm even if it... [Moses thinks better of it as thunder rumbles] No, never mind, that will do very nicely thank you." Haha, I remember this. Good stuff.

 

Edited by BaldJean - June 21 2019 at 09:31

Edited by BaldJean - June 21 2019 at 09:51

I have some thoughts on what God, if God exists, might be like that might help explain some ... what seem like ... paradoxes. But, at that point I would be crossing the great philosophy/religion divide and I've already upset Dark Elf enough with my babblings about philosophy.