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    Posted: December 18 2018 at 08:15
Hi there! 
I'm Italian and I would like to give you some info about how prog was received here back in the days. 

We had many prog rock bands, but it wasn't a coincidence. In fact, prog was all over the place: TV shows (not every day obviously, but it wasn't strange at all), every music/culture magazine of the time, independent radio channels, but also some specific programs of the national radio.

Sadly, its memory hasn't been preserved. Today nobody remembers the bands that dominated the scene, not even the Italian ones. They went into the oblivion faster than light. Under-35 people are completely unaware of Le Orme.
Please note that I'm not talking about children: even those who are born in 1984 are under-35, and I can tell you by personal experience that nobody knows Le Orme. 
What's funny is that if you put the age range just about 6 or 7 years higher, a lot of people knows them, and for a good reason: Le Orme were enormously popular during their golden age. In fact, they were surpassed only by Pooh (a baroque pop band that you may know for the prog-related album "Parsifal").
Sadly, Pooh are still known by everybody, while Le Orme and every other prog band aren't... maybe only PFM, which are considered a one-hit wonder ("Impressioni di settembre", obviously).

I will post how Italian and British prog bands did in our album chart, just to let you see the impact that this music style had over here. I will separate them in two posts. 

Notes: the Italian album chart was a top 8 in the early Seventies, then it was gradually expanded.
The fact that it was composed by eight positions only may led someone to think that the Italian album market was small, but in fact it wasn't. The best selling albums in 1971-72 easily reached the 300.000 copies mark, and some went even higher ("Il mio canto libero" by prog-related singer Lucio Battisti sold 500.000 in 1973). 

Italian Bands

PREMIATA FORNERIA MARCONI
"Storia di un minuto" No. 1 for one week. Chart-run: 11 weeks (top 8)
"Per un amico" No. 5. Chart-run: 6 weeks (top 20)
"L'isola di niente" No. 3. Chart-run: 29 weeks (top 35)
"Live in U.S.A." No. 6. Chart-run: 28 weeks (top 35)
"Chocolate Kings" No. 7. Chart-run: 25 weeks (top 35)
Starting from this moment, every chart-run applies to the top 50.
"Jet Lag" No. 8. Chart-run: 20 weeks
"Passpartù" No. 36. Chart-run: 11 weeks
"Suonare suonare" No. 17. Chart-run: 24 weeks
"Come ti va in riva alla città" No. 7. Chart-run: 22 weeks
"Performance" No. 11. Chart-run: 24 weeks
The only relevant chart performance after that point:
"Miss Baker" No. 34. Chart-run: 14 weeks

LE ORME
"Collage" No. 3. Chart-run: 5 weeks (top 8)
"Uomo di pezza" No. 1 for six weeks. Chart-run: 35 weeks (top 8) Shocked
"Felona e Sorona" No. 2. Chart-run: 29 weeks (top 20)
"In concerto" No. 5. Chart-run: 19 weeks (top 35)
"Contrappunti" No. 7. Chart-run: 16 weeks (top 35)
"Smogmagica" No. 11. Chart-run: 40 weeks (top 35)
"Verità nascoste" No. 3. Chart-run: 30 weeks (top 35)
Starting from this moment, every chart-run applies to the top 50.
"Storia o leggenda" No. 3. Chart-run: 25 weeks
"Florian" No. 8. Chart-run: 30 weeks
"Piccola rapsodia dell'ape" No. 18. Chart-run: 16 weeks
"Venerdì" No. 18. Chart-run: 15 weeks
"Orme" No. 45. Chart-run: 6 weeks
They never entered the chart again.

BANCO DEL MUTUO SOCCORSO
"Banco del mutuo soccorso" No. 3. Chart-run: 6 weeks (top 8)
"Darwin!" No. 4. Chart-run: 16 weeks (top 20)
"Io sono nato libero" No. 10. Chart-run: 14 weeks (top 20)
"Banco" (1975) No. 10. Chart-run: 27 weeks (top 35)
"Garofano rosso" No. 9. Chart-run: 21 weeks (top 35)
"Come in un'ultima cena" No. 8. Chart-run: 21 weeks (top 35)
Starting from this moment, every chart-run applies to the top 50.
"Canto di primavera" No. 35. Chart-run: 12 weeks
"Capolinea" No. 28. Chart-run: 19 weeks
"Urgentissimo" No. 11. Chart-run: 19 weeks
"Banco" (1983) No. 23. Chart-run: 12 weeks
This way their last relevant chart performance.

GOBLIN
"Profondo rosso" No. 2. Chart run: 51 weeks (top 35)
"Suspirai" No. 14. Chart run: 18 weeks (top 35)

NEW TROLLS
"Concerto grosso" No. 2. Chart-run: 12 weeks (top 8)
"Concerto grosso n. 2" No. 19. Chart-run: 17 weeks (top 35)

LOCANDA DELLE FATE
"Forse le lucciole non si amano più" No. 25. Chart-run: 10 weeks (top 50)

DELIRIUM
"Dolce acqua" No. 7. Chart-run: 3 weeks (top 8)

PERIGEO
"Genealogia" No. 21. Chart-run: 1 week (top 35)
"La valle dei templi" No. 16. Chart-run: 15 weeks (top 35)

AREA, OSANNA, NAPOLI CENTRALE
Well... they never entered the Italian chart (except Osanna, which entered the charts of some minor magazines). I was quite surprised too.

Prog albums by artists who are not known as progressive rock musicians.

FRANCO BATTIATO
"Pollution" No. 8. Chart-run: 5 weeks (top 20)

LUCIO BATTISTI
"Anima latina" No. 1 for fourteen weeks. Chart-run: 43 weeks (top 35)

Tomorrow I will post the British bands rankings, which are even more surprising (we are basically the only country which aknowledged some kind of popularity to Gentle Giant and Van Der Graaf Generator).


Edited by progsa - December 18 2018 at 08:21
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I just realized that I probably misunderstood that "prog-related" in the section title (I'm sorry, my English is not very good)... Ouch
if you are able to, you can move this topic in the right section. 
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In my opinion, in Italy, a good number of people over 50 know (in order of popularity) 
- PFM
- Banco
- New Trolls 
- Le Orme

For example, I am 48, and I know the exisisting of Le Orme as a prog group but only for my personal research.
The same for New Trolls.
But in the reality both Le Orme and New Trolls went on Sanremo Festival in the 80s. With no success.

PFM and Banco are better known.

Franco Battiato is very well known, as Battisti (and even Alan Sorrenti for his pop songs).
Anyway, Battisti wasn't prog. And Battiato have recorded a lot of Lp, only the earlier were prog. 
The rest is sophisticated pop music.

But in my opinion people under 35 dont know music of 70-80s.
The problem is not with progressive. 
Young people dont know every kind of italian music of 70-80s.

 
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I don't agree. I mean, if we are talking about children, it's even quite obvious that they don't... but if you think of people in their twenties and early thirties, many of them know Battisti, Battiato, Mina, Baglioni, Pooh, and other stars of the 70s-80s. 
On the contrary, prog rock was completely deleted, despite selling a lot for the whole seventies... and it was a fast process... in the early 90s nobody remembered Le Orme or PFM anymore.  
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The greatest success of Baglioni and Battiato and Pooh was in the eighties.
In the 80s Pfm, Banco, Le Orme, New Trolls were not at the top of the charts.

In the 80s Battiato after Sanremo festival (Bandiera bianca) sold millions of copies with
La voce del Padrone, and Le Orme? 
And New Trolls?

Then, another reason:
The songs are easy to remember, not the Lp.
When you are teenager (in Italy), you sing melodic songs: Battisti, Baglioni, Pooh.
Even Teorema, by Ferradini, is well known (You remember the song but perhaps not the name of the author).

Prog rock is famous for the albums, not for the songs.

Even songwriters like Bennato, Concato, Branduardi are deleted but, maybe, some guy under 35
knows some melodic songs written by them. 
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I strongly disagree with basically everything you said (Baglioni and Pooh had their greatest success in the Eighties? Do I live a parallel universe?), but hey, to each one his own. 

My point was to show to anyone who might have been interested how well prog did in Italy during the Seventies. It can help a progger to put things into perspective.
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Originally posted by progsa progsa wrote:

I strongly disagree with basically everything you said (Baglioni and Pooh had their greatest success in the Eighties? Do I live a parallel universe?), but hey, to each one his own. 

My point was to show to anyone who might have been interested how well prog did in Italy during the Seventies. It can help a progger to put things into perspective.

The best selling album of Battiato is La voce del Padrone (1981). Then, L'Arca di Noè (1982). And then he sold a lot again in the 90s and 2000s

The best selling album of Baglioni is La vita è adesso (1985). Then, even Oltre was very well sold.

These are no my opinions, are facts.

I dont know what is the best selling album of the Pooh, but I imagine that in the 80s their albums sold
much more than in the 70s. The Pooh were first in the charts even in the 2016...


So, it is not possible to compare PFM, Banco, Orme with these groups/authors, because these groups/authors were on the top of the charts until... yesterday!

But I paartially agree with you that progressive has been quickly deleted: one reason is that progressive is not remembered for the single songs.


Edited by jamesbaldwin - December 18 2018 at 11:23
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

The best selling album of Baglioni is La vita è adesso (1985). Then, even Oltre was very well sold.
These are no my opinions, are facts.

Sure, these are his two biggest selling albums... but there aren't only albums in his case. There are singles too. Both Baglioni and Pooh had enormously popular singles in the Seventies, with 45 rpm records which sold close to one million copies each. 
Something they definitely hadn't in the Eighties, when they didn't sell singles at all (except for "Avrai" by Baglioni). 
The fact is: you said that Italian 70s-80s music in general was deleted from young people's mind, which is false.  

(Also, I think you are bringing this thread far off-topic honestly... I posted those rankings to see if they could be of any interest for prog lovers, and you are here discussing about Italian pop music which has nothing to do with it).
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Dear progsa, we are both italian and prog lovers, so lets understand each other, we work for the same cause.

I dont want to bring this thread out of topic. I would like to give my contribution.

I agree with you that: 

"We had many prog rock bands, but it wasn't a coincidence. In fact, prog was all over the place: TV shows (not every day obviously, but it wasn't strange at all), every music/culture magazine of the time, independent radio channels, but also some specific programs of the national radio.

Sadly, its memory hasn't been preserved. Today nobody remembers the bands that dominated the scene, not even the Italian ones. They went into the oblivion faster than light. Under-35 people are completely unaware of Le Orme."

But when you say: "Le Orme were enormously popular during their golden age. In fact, they were surpassed only by Pooh (a baroque pop band that you may know for the prog-related album "Parsifal").
Sadly, Pooh are still known by everybody, while Le Orme and every other prog band aren't"

It seems that your thesis is: only progressive bands are unknkown to young people (under 35) because they have been erased from memory, while other successful bands of the 70s and 80s (for example Pooh) are still very known.

And so, I say to you: if you wanted to prove that only the memory of progressive rock has not been preserved, you should compare progressive band (PFM, Banco, New Trolls, Le Orme, others) with other groups that, like those progressive bands, were succesful in the charts only in the 70s and in the first half of the 80s. I mean: it is clear why everybody in Italy "knows" the Pooh: because their albums reach the no. 1 of the charts since 50 years! There's no need to "preserve the memory" of the Pooh, because they are here, alive and kicking, on the charts, on the radio and tv, on the newspaper etc. The same goes for Battiato.

So, I DONT say that "Italian 70s-80s music in general was deleted from young people's mind",
in fact I corrected what I wrote in my first comment, saying that often are remembered those groups/artists who have made melodic songs (both on 45 laps and on 33 laps) easy to remember and sing.

Anyway, if you wanted to prove that only the memory of prog music has not been preserved, you should compare Le Orme (ora Banco etc) with other groups o artists whose success in the ranking occurred only in the seventies and early eighties. And It is no so easy to do.  



Edited by jamesbaldwin - December 18 2018 at 15:15
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I see on a book of mine, this chart:

Italia, 1972, best selling albums:

1) Foxtrot (Genesis)
2) Umanamente uomo, il sogno (Battisti)
3) Trilogy (EL&P)
4) 5043 (Mina)
5) Thick as a Brick (JT)
6) Storia di un minuto (PFM)
7) Mina (Mina)
8) Uomo di pezza (Le orme)
9) Non al denaro, non all'amore né al cielo (De Andrè)
10) Machine head (Deep Purple)

Wow, prog forever!!!

Prog + Mina + Battisti + De André.
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I have a Pooh LP - Buona Fortuna. I can see how they would be very well known.
I always thought that the likes of Banco DMS, Le Orme, PFM, New Trolls etc. would be a lot more popular than how you say. Strange.
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

It seems that your thesis is: only progressive bands are unknkown to young people (under 35) because they have been erased from memory, while other successful bands of the 70s and 80s (for example Pooh) are still very known.

And so, I say to you: if you wanted to prove that only the memory of progressive rock has not been preserved, you should compare progressive band (PFM, Banco, New Trolls, Le Orme, others) with other groups that, like those progressive bands, were succesful in the charts only in the 70s and in the first half of the 80s. I mean: it is clear why everybody in Italy "knows" the Pooh: because their albums reach the no. 1 of the charts since 50 years! There's no need to "preserve the memory" of the Pooh, because they are here, alive and kicking, on the charts, on the radio and tv, on the newspaper etc. The same goes for Battiato.

But this is the point! Pooh were able to maintain their popularity. Battiato was able to expand it. 
On the contrary, Le Orme and PFM weren't. 
In fact, their popularity vanished, while they were still existing, and touring, and releasing albums... but one way or another, the process was unstoppable. They even tried a more poppy sound (which I don't dislike at all, I love some PFM songs from the Eighties), but in the end sales dropped year after year, while Pooh were still on top. 
So this is exactly the point: prog was soon deleted from the memory, while other artists from that generation were able to surpass the "social revolution" that happened in Italy between the 70s and the 80s. 
As a fact, by the beginning of the 90s, young people didn't remember Le Orme or Banco at all.
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Let's post some rankings for the British bands. I will start with Genesis. I will post ELP, Jethro Tull, VDGG, Gentle Giant, Yes in the following days. 

GENESIS
Foxtrot no. 5, chart-run: 4 weeks (top 8)
[So, definitely not the best selling album in Italy in 1972]
Live no. 17, chart-run: 2 weeks (top 20)
Selling England no. 4, chart-run: 35 weeks (top 35)
The Lamb no. 14, chart-run: 12 weeks (top 35)
A Trick no. 3, chart-run: 41 weeks (top 35)
Wind and Wuthering no. 6, chart-run: 25 weeks (top 35)
Starting from this moment, every chart-run is applied to the top 50
Seconds Out no. 6, chart-run: 18 weeks
And Then There... no. 8, chart-run: 13 weeks
Duke no. 2, chart-run: 29 weeks
Abacab no. 1 for four weeks, chart-run: 28 weeks
Three Sides Live no. 15, chart-run: 20 weeks
Genesis no. 7, chart-run: 14 weeks
Invisible Touch no. 7, chart-run: 20 weeks
We Can't Dance no. 5, chart-run: 18 weeks
The only relevant chart performance after this point:
Calling All Stations no. 9, chart-run: 6 weeks
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Originally posted by progsa progsa wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

It seems that your thesis is: only progressive bands are unknkown to young people (under 35) because they have been erased from memory, while other successful bands of the 70s and 80s (for example Pooh) are still very known.

And so, I say to you: if you wanted to prove that only the memory of progressive rock has not been preserved, you should compare progressive band (PFM, Banco, New Trolls, Le Orme, others) with other groups that, like those progressive bands, were succesful in the charts only in the 70s and in the first half of the 80s. I mean: it is clear why everybody in Italy "knows" the Pooh: because their albums reach the no. 1 of the charts since 50 years! There's no need to "preserve the memory" of the Pooh, because they are here, alive and kicking, on the charts, on the radio and tv, on the newspaper etc. The same goes for Battiato.

But this is the point! Pooh were able to maintain their popularity. Battiato was able to expand it. 
On the contrary, Le Orme and PFM weren't. 
In fact, their popularity vanished, while they were still existing, and touring, and releasing albums... but one way or another, the process was unstoppable. They even tried a more poppy sound (which I don't dislike at all, I love some PFM songs from the Eighties), but in the end sales dropped year after year, while Pooh were still on top. 
So this is exactly the point: prog was soon deleted from the memory, while other artists from that generation were able to surpass the "social revolution" that happened in Italy between the 70s and the 80s. 
As a fact, by the beginning of the 90s, young people didn't remember Le Orme or Banco at all.

Progsa, Le Orme, Banco etc. had success only in the golden age of prog. Their songs were proggy.
They are not able to produce commercial songs with catchy melodies. Their poppy sound is bad.

The Pooh are like McCartney: always catchy melodies.

It's hard to explain why, but some groups can write commercial, catchy songs with all the tricks of the trade, but they can not sell. Sometimes it's a question of sound, voice, image or (let's not forget) advertising campaign ... you do not know, the fact is that they seem to have all the numbers, yet they do not sell. 
Other groups instead write similar songs and are always at the top of the charts. 
In general, there are very few groups or authors who write really demanding music, like the progressive one, and then they manage to switch to pop music selling a lot. It usually happens, not surprisingly, to those bands that write songs that, removed the pomp of the arrangements, remain basic pop songs (Genesis, Yes).
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Random fact but wasn't Genesis - Nursery Chryme first chart entry anywhere in the world in Italy?

I also remember reading that ELP opened for PFM on the Italian leg of their 73 European World Tour (PFM were supporting ELP on that tour). That was quite something considering ELP's status at that time.

It's a real shame that PFM , Banco and the rest are not well remembered although the under 35's not knowing these band is not surprising at all. I remember having to convince someone at work that Prog rock even existed. There was no section for Prog Rock in the record stores so therefore it didn't exist as far as he was concerned. That was about 20 years as well.
 
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