(Musician) Ruined ( Band) for me. |
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micky
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try this again, minus the emoticon.. LaBrie was FAR from the only fatal affliction that group had. Just the most obvious and most fun to sh*t upon As far as the topic itself and musicians, not singers. Really hard to say. I'd have to think back and think long to consider any and likely wouldn't be prog groups. Now a more interesting side topic would be the absence of which musicians ruined bands moving forward. The shining example in my book being Phil Shulman and Gentle Giant who lost the plot and whose sound and style completely changed and NOT for the better.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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wiz_d_kidd
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I mostly agree, but have to say Discipline was an absolute gem (for me, anyway). After that, I think Belew exerted too much influence and moved the music in a direction I didn't care for.
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dr wu23
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^ Ditto for me.....
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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flyingveepixie
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If there's one thing which makes a musician stand out from the crowd it's being able to play the same thing twice - so many musos just can't do that including some very famous ones. As for Peart being an uninspired drummer - well, each to their own I suppose and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. At least it keeps the discussion interesting...
Edited by flyingveepixie - October 14 2018 at 04:58 |
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flyingveepixie
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Yeah Labrie is cringeworthy these days. I still love the earlier DT albums up to "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" but after that they seemed to go so far downhill in terms of memorable songwriting although the musical virtuosity remains. Labries live performances were never that great and I always thought he was a bit of a wailer on stage but nowadays he just makes me cringe and I can't watch him at all. Edited by flyingveepixie - November 26 2018 at 07:25 |
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Tapfret
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The 3 Voivod albums with Jason Newstead on bass are almost as boring is the Mehallica albums he played on.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10261 |
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I totally disagree. Being able to play the same thing twice is what playing composed music is all about, so it is very basic. But for a solo, where in my opinion a musician has the chance to let his imagination flow and improvise like hell, this is extremely boring and uninspired. By the way: Most classical composers, for example Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, were great improvisors. Many of their compositions were originally improvised and only afterwards noted down. And THIS is what makes a great musician: To be able to remember what you improvised and write it down.
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flyingveepixie
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Hiya, As I say : each to their own and differences in opinion are what keeps a discussion interesting. Personally it really does my head in when someone like Gilmour comes along with a performance of say "Time" and plays the solo completely differently from what I've known and loved for forty years. Gary Moore was always guilty of that too - he'd play all these great songs and then improvise for 10 minutes widdling mindlessly in an improvised solo which was basically just dull and uninteresting and nothing like the one on the original song which I had grown to love. Compare those two to someone like Petrucci for example who can deliver the same complex pieces note for note time and time again... On the other hand, the jazz guitarist Martin Taylor is a great improvisor and one of the most skilled players I've ever heard who can also repeat the most complex pieces note for note. I don't know what Mozarts or Beethovens thoughts are/were on improvisation but I like Beethovens piano sonatas and Mozarts symphonies just as they are and wouldn't like to hear improvised versions of them. Anyway as I say again, it's all just differences of opinion and no offence intended to you...
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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ahem. I would like to explicate what Friede said. first of all: I am a classically trained pianist and also have training in harmonics and composition, so I know what I am talking about. the way I understand you you seem to think that improvised music is somehow inferior to composed music. maybe you think it is not as complex or structured as composed music. this is, however, not true at all; an improvised piece can be just as complex as a composed piece. or maybe you are a follower of the genius cult of the romantic era. or maybe you just aren't very adventurous. I as a true Sagittarian am however very adventurous, and so is Friede as a true Aquarian (this sense of adventure is what keeps our relationship going). you also have some misinterpretations about sonatas. you think they are all totally composed. however, classical composers like Mozart and Beethoven left room for improvised solo cadences, usually in the 3rd movement. they wrote down these cadences afterwards, but originally they were improvised. what's more: many classical pianists wrote their own cadences which they and other pianists play when performing a certain sonata. so when someone plays for example Mozart it is only Mozart up to a certain point. the French-Canadian pianist Marc-André Hamelin, probably the most technically skilled pianist of today, is very well known for this. his skill is absolutely breathtaking; he likes to play very complicated pieces and make them even more complicated by additions of his own
Edited by BaldJean - October 15 2018 at 05:39 |
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flyingveepixie
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 23 2015 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 146 |
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suit yourself
Edited by flyingveepixie - November 26 2018 at 01:29 |
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BaldJean
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you misunderstand me. I am not talking about liking or not liking improvisation. I am pointing out that much of what you believe to be composed is actually improvised
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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flyingveepixie
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OK
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Jeffro
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This really doesn't make any sense. If Peart never had an inspiration, then he never would have learned to play the drums or he merely would have become a studio player, playing for other people. I'm not taking issue with you not caring for Peart. That's fine but improvisation is not necessarily the same as inspiration. To call Neil uninspired is just plain wrong. If you want to call him non-improvisational then yeah, that's not really his style, although he still improvised a little bit at times.
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BaldFriede
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I will quote the dictionary for the meaning of "inspiration". inspiration ɪnspɪˈreɪʃ(ə)n/< width="14" ="" height="14"> noun noun: inspiration
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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Lewian
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Haha, I jump on your other suggestion. I agree Hartwig Biereichel is an amazingly bad drummer in such an otherwise good band, but there was never any Novalis without Biereichel so it's hard to say he "ruined" them for anyone. More likely is that without him the band would never have existed because I think on a personal level he was quite central and important for them.
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rogerthat
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WURD. Seriously. After Les Binks, Holland is the worst drummer they could have had. Thank God Travis joined in later. I dislike that Travis is so fill happy but anything better than more mechanical than a drum machine Holland. While not a ruinous replacement, Jabs stepping in for Uli Roth took a lot out of the band. You don't want to hear his stabs at We'll Burn The Sky. Wait, actually with all due respect to Meine and Rudy Schenker, Uli Roth pretty much made the band. Only he screamed out genius in the entire lineup and when he was gone, they gradually became a dull, albeit far more successful, band.
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Jeffro
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Peart was incapable of coming up with "sudden brilliant or timely ideas" while creating drums parts for 19 studio albums and countless live performances? Really? If you don't like Peart (and it's obvious you don't) then just come out and say so. Don't try to justify it by cherry picking the definition you want (and being, oh by the way, dead wrong to boot).
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BaldFriede
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Sigh; I knew this would come from Rush fans. They would (deliberately?) misunderstand me. Edited by BaldFriede - October 15 2018 at 10:08 |
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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The.Crimson.King
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Same here. I like Belew's solo albums, but in Crimson he tries too hard to be weird and comes off like a poor mans David Byrne. I'd also add Tony Levin, love his Chapman Stick work but have never liked his bass playing, too funk for my taste.
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BaldJean
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I would like to elaborate a bit more on what I said to
flyingveepixie (about not knowing what is composed and what is
improvised). many baroque compositions are for an instrument or a group
of instruments plus basso continuo. I could explain what basso continuo
is but I will instead quote from Wikipedia: Basso continuo parts, almost universal in the Baroque era (1600–1750), provided the harmonic structure of the music. The phrase is often shortened to continuo, and the instrumentalists playing the continuo part are called the continuo group. The makeup of the continuo group is often left to the discretion of the performers, and practice varied enormously within the Baroque period. At least one instrument capable of playing chords must be included, such as a piano, harpsichord, organ, lute, theorbo, guitar, regal, or harp. In addition, any number of instruments which play in the bass register may be included, such as cello, double bass, bass viol, or bassoon. The most common combination, at least in modern performances, is harpsichord and cello for instrumental works and secular vocal works, such as operas, and organ for sacred music. Typically performers match the instrument families used in the full ensemble: including bassoon when the work includes oboes or other winds, but restricting it to cello and/or double bass if only strings are involved. Harps, lutes, and other handheld instruments are more typical of early 17th-century music. Sometimes instruments are specified by the composer: in L'Orfeo (1607) Monteverdi calls for an exceptionally varied instrumentation, with multiple harpsichords and lutes with a bass violin in the pastoral scenes followed by lamenting to the accompaniment of organo di legno and chitarrone, while Charon stands watch to the sound of a regal. The keyboard (or other chord-playing instrument) player realizes a continuo part by playing, in addition to the notated bass line, notes above it to complete chords, either determined ahead of time or improvised in performance. The figured bass notation, described below, is a guide, but performers are also expected to use their musical judgment and the other instruments or voices (notably the lead melody and any accidentals that might be present in it) as a guide. Experienced players sometimes incorporate motives found in the other instrumental parts into their improvised chordal accompaniment. Modern editions of such music usually supply a realized keyboard part, fully written out in staff notation for a player, in place of improvisation. With the rise in historically informed performance, however, the number of performers who are able to improvise their parts from the figures, as Baroque players would have done, has increased.[citation needed] Basso continuo, though an essential structural and identifying element of the Baroque period, continued to be used in many works, mostly (but not limited to) sacred choral works, of the classical period (up to around 1800).[3][not in citation given] An example is C. P. E. Bach's Concerto in D minor for flute, strings and basso continuo. Examples of its use in the 19th century are rarer, but they do exist: masses by Anton Bruckner, Beethoven, and Franz Schubert, for example, have a basso continuo part that was for an organist. so when you hear a "composition" like for example Johann Sebastian Bach's Sonata in e minor for flute and basso continuo (BWV 1034) you should be aware that this basso continuo part is not fully written out; the composer left it to the skill of the performing musician(s) to improvise that part. improvisation
is sadly not something that is taught at institutions that train modern
classical musicians (I was lucky that my second teacher put great
emphasis on training improvisational skills too, but then I did not go
to any of these institutions; I had private lessons). but musicians of
the past were expected to be able to improvise. you
should also remember that there were no recording devices at the time
most classical composers lived. so what could they do when they wanted
some of the improvised music they played to audiences to be played by
others? they wrote it down, but after it was played, not before. during
the romantic era genius was seen as being superior to skill. it was
then that improvisation started to vanish from musical performances; the
"genius" of the composer suddenly became all-important. what was
written down now was a holy cow. this attitude towards notated music has
remained until today. in recent years the interest in improvisation in
classical music had a little revival, mostly due to the rise of historically informed performance
Edited by BaldJean - October 16 2018 at 03:32 |
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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