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Flower Kings Appreciation Thread
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

I get more of a intellectual buzz than a sexual one. I haven't bought any vinyl for a long time. The hiss n crackle plus the inevitable scratch would put me off. Not convinced about the luddites assertion that vinyl is warmer etc. I Think that is just confirmation bias!

I don't have hiss, nor crackle. Sure there is some surface noise as it is a physical media, but that only happens between songs, once the music starts, that's all I hear, music.

Has nothing to do with being warmer, it simply sounds better and there is more musical information buried in the grooves. Remember the CD/redbook is actually limited to 20KHz in upper frequency and 20Hz in lower.
The argument to this is nobody hears above 20KHz.....fair enough, but if there is musical information there it simply adds to the flavor and color of the total experience, part of the reason there is no listening fatigue with records/analog. Your brain is not trying to figure out why your not hearing all the info with a CD.

And chicks dig records....not CDs SmileClap

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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

[QUOTE=M27Barney]
The argument to this is nobody hears above 20KHz.....fair enough, but if there is musical information there it simply adds to the flavor and color of the total experience, part of the reason there is no listening fatigue with records/analog. Your brain is not trying to figure out why your not hearing all the info with a CD.


I'd be interested in seeing exactly how much ultrasonic audio actually makes it onto the record and out your speakers - Digital is not the only medium that has frequency limitations. Every mic, amp, speaker, etc has a frequency response, and it's not uncommon to see it sloping way down as you reach 20K. A lot of people use SM57's for recording guitars - check out the frequency response specs for one of those!

Can't really comment on listener fatigue... But I would be willing to guess that has more to do with modern producers trying to compress music to make it sound as loud as possible. You just couldn't compress sound on vinyl as much as you can with digital media... but really you shouldn't need to because it just doesn't sound good.
My prog band - Boreal Kinship
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M27Barney View Drop Down
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"it simply sounds better" - to you? - thus that could just be your own preference and loaded with confirmation bias!I have CD's and expensive headphones - need no more. I suspect that some people have better hearing than others. I want to see some science - proving that listening to vinyl is better - with a double-blind experiment!
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M27Barney View Drop Down
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"oh and your brain is not trying to figure out why your not hearing all the info" - that's psuedo-scientific bullsh*t of the highest order! - Prove that statement - give me the equation!
Simply put - we have an "emperors's new clothes" effect happening here - don't forget that your ear turns sounds into digital signals for you brain to assimilate - so regardless of the signal source - it always ends up being represented by electrical, impulses  which may certainly be interpreted in a digital manner. You are careering into cartesian dualism here and that has simply been proven to be wrong.


Edited by M27Barney - April 27 2018 at 06:14
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miamiscot View Drop Down
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I love vinyl but it's mainly for the nostalgia I feel when crate digging...

Is it better quality sound than CD? I care not.
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Friends.........I am not going to delve into this hell hole topic of Analog vs Digital, there are mountains of threads on audio sites about this. Both sides have valid points, both scientific and subjective. If you have interest as I did many many years ago you can go look and read them.

And yes, that is my opinion that "it simply sounds better" and yes to me and yes on my system. "Sounds better" cannot be scientifically proven, its a 100% subjective statement. Same as what people claim on this site about why this or that band is the best......This whole forum is subjective, you can't argue what I like or you like.

I have and always will state that digital is the best medium to capture music in the studio, but in the end the industry screwed it up and created the mess they are in now with so many doubters, and for good reasons.
All recordings are done in 24bit hi-rez format, there is no need for the industry to downsample that to 16bit/redbook and create the doubt.

There are also mountains of threads where music lovers now confirm that records from the 70s sound better than CDs from the 90's, make your own assumptions. I have done A/B listening of same music on vinyl and CD, vinyl wins. Where digital is comparable to vinyl is when I A/B a high rez 24 bit file or DSD file...also understand that what digital lacks is the soundstaging, imaging, depth of music. Digital is precise and that is what a lot do not care for is the clinical sounding of digital.

You can read audio gear reviews for DACs, CD players that talk about "analog sounding, or warm", some with tube buffers to add this warmth or analog sound people want.

My main system is built for analog, that's where my money goes, because that is what my ears like and prefer. All my digital gear is in another system upstairs that wife uses for background music....

It's about the music and how you feel you hear it best....for me its records.

YMMV
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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I typed in "girls and compact discs" and got this image.....Grandma and her desktop

Related image

Type in "girls and vinyl records", you don't get grandma

Image result for girls and vinyl records

Vinyl wins...again LOL
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I found lots of rude images on the internet with girls and cd's. However...to The music. "The world that we drive through" has grown on me with each successive spin. I must say that if the other releases are all better than that then they are going to be fecking amazing!
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I had 10 hours in the car last weekend going to see my son at school.........Listened to Stardust, Retropolis, Adam&Eve (my fav) and forced myself to listen to Banks of Eden.......

Driving back I did Flowerpower, Back In the World Of Adventures and DR. Found some new love for Retropolis....I was alone as wife could not go so there was a lot of volume, it was fun!
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I think both the Flower Kings and The Tangent are awesome. My fav TFK album is The Sum of No Evil, although I really like all of them (or at least, parts of all of them). 

Tangent is great too. Really like Slow Rust - really great, excellent musicianship and composition. The only one I rarely ever put on any more is the previous one (Spark in the Aether). 
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I had 10 hours in the car last weekend going to see my son at school.........Listened to Stardust, Retropolis, Adam&Eve (my fav) and forced myself to listen to Banks of Eden.......

Driving back I did Flowerpower, Back In the World Of Adventures and DR. Found some new love for Retropolis....I was alone as wife could not go so there was a lot of volume, it was fun!
How did you stop the turntable from jumping? You must have travelled some really smooth roads...
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I have love for all the Flower Kings albums, but somehow Banks of Eden and Desolation Rose are the dearest to me. Maybe they are more coherent. Shorter albums with absolute no fillers.

When they record a new album, I would like it to be a single disc with the same approach as those two albums.
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I had 10 hours in the car last weekend going to see my son at school.........Listened to Stardust, Retropolis, Adam&Eve (my fav) and forced myself to listen to Banks of Eden.......

Driving back I did Flowerpower, Back In the World Of Adventures and DR. Found some new love for Retropolis....I was alone as wife could not go so there was a lot of volume, it was fun!
How did you stop the turntable from jumping? You must have travelled some really smooth roads...

LOL ClapClap
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If there’s one MAJOR thing I’ve noticed when spinning a TFK album, it’s that it’s GREAT TO BE ALIVE !!!
They have a very special way with melodies and power (eg : Church Of Your Heart) that few bands possess.
(then I’ll go and stuff it up by spinning a Slayer record......)
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There's always a touch of spirituality (and some christianity) and left-wing environmentalism in the music of Flower Kings, wich appeals to me.
It gives me hope in a world that's slowly rotting away.
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Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

"it simply sounds better" - to you? - thus that could just be your own preference and loaded with confirmation bias!I have CD's and expensive headphones - need no more. I suspect that some people have better hearing than others. I want to see some science - proving that listening to vinyl is better - with a double-blind experiment!

[


Somehwere on the old threads a couple of years or so ago Dean our past esteemed moderator and engineer expert did  several long posts to show that the audio frequencies ,etc ,etc  and hearing etc...showed that vinyl sounding  better is just a psychological/subjective perception.
Just my two cents on what he once posted...

Smile
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Well there is a ton of religious context in TFK music and this is not anything new for them, which is perfectly fine by me.
It does not give me hope per se, but I like the fact that Roine and company are comfortable in writing that into their music.

Of course the world is rotting away, the earth is about 4.5 billion years old........LOL
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

"it simply sounds better" - to you? - thus that could just be your own preference and loaded with confirmation bias!I have CD's and expensive headphones - need no more. I suspect that some people have better hearing than others. I want to see some science - proving that listening to vinyl is better - with a double-blind experiment!

Somehwere on the old threads a couple of years or so ago Dean our past esteemed moderator and engineer expert did  several long posts to show that the audio frequencies ,etc ,etc  and hearing etc...showed that vinyl sounding  better is just a psychological/subjective perception.
Just my two cents on what he once posted...

Smile

Yes he did, but his explanations were always, as he stated, the scientific end of the argument, specifications only. For sure digital (not CD) holds the best specifications in the industry, can't argue that...but that in noway means "it sounds best". If we are talking physical media, the CD is restricted to an upper limit of 20KHz, that's it. The vinyl media has no upper limit, not that it matters much but there have been records pressed with upper frequencies of 30-50KHz and even 100KHz, does not matter because we will never hear that. Most of us are probably in the 15-17KHz range.....but that's not all of it.

Your brain uses these upper limits to help process the music/sounds in its entirety, in the real world there are sounds with freq up to 50KHz, we know they exist we have no idea where they are coming from but we feel their presence. Why do you think so many people have subs in their media systems or cars...they want to "feel" the bass, it's never "wow that was a very low note I just heard".....no it's "wow did you see the pictures on the wall shake??!!" Feeling the music helps us be engaged more in the music.

You need as much of the upper freq as possible, that helps you get the SNAP of a snare drum, if not it has a dense sound, dynamics are not there. A cymbal hit has freq well above 20KHz, probably close to 50% of its sound is higher than 20KHz, some horn instruments can shoot sounds above that range also.

I want all the music range in my listening experience, that's why I don't listen to CDs anymore. I do listen to some 24bit hi-rez files and DSD files but those are terribly expensive and are very large files to d/l and there is nothing physical about them, do digital files even exist?? ErmmLOL

Recording in the digital domain is the best from a SNR perspective and capturing the audio, period. But all the other stuff that happens to a digital file downstream is not, the industry simply has not figured it out, its gotten much better in the past 25yrs but its still a big mess, digital that is. 24bit is more than enough to capture and hear audio without any noise, at 24bit that gives something crazy like 144dB SNR, that is much wider than absolute silence and human threshold of hearing pain, nuts, that simply is not natural. But we do it because we can, but again that does not equate to "sounds best".

To me, you are having to convince yourself that your digital files sound best because inbetween songs you don't hear any noise, or a pop or click. You should know that the CD is probably not the best media to experience a high end listening session. It was never designed for that, it was designed to hold more minutes of music, that's all.

I had zero issues with what Dean explained.....but it's not both sides of the story.
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M27Barney View Drop Down
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So if people are convincing themselves that their cds sound better why Isn't the vinyl connoisseur convincing themselves that their vinyl sounds better? I'm not a CD snob. Just think that vinyl snobbery is a bit like a wine w**ker telling me that beer is sh*te. It's all subjective.
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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2nd try.....Bit*h slapped by captcha....

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

So if people are convincing themselves that their cds sound better why Isn't the vinyl connoisseur convincing themselves that their vinyl sounds better? I'm not a CD snob. Just think that vinyl snobbery is a bit like a wine w**ker telling me that beer is sh*te. It's all subjective.

Exactly, its all subjective......Both are convincing themselves it "sounds better/best". Honestly the CD crowd are the ones who, on audio threads, tend to lash out more about defending digital. I tend to laugh along, because it is all subjective when you discuss what do you prefer.
I've done my own A/B tests on my system and vinyl wins, 24 bit files are on par with new issue vinyl, since that is the source. CD is at the bottom of the food chain for me....Works great in the car with all the road noise so I don't care, although I listen to digital files from my Zune in the car. All CDs I get I rip them to file for portable use.

It makes sense, from an audio gear view, that records perform better for me on my system, that is where I have put my money.
I'm not going to build an uber digital system and then have to spend dbl/triple money to replicate my record collection....That's not a smart use of my money IMO.

I don't drink much wine and all beer tastes like dirty water.......LOL 
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