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Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20604
Posted: March 16 2018 at 13:43
^ No one could be more distrustful of governments than an old American hippie like me, so I do acknowledge that your feelings derive from this distrust, which I feel is healthy. What I feel is not healthy is when people trust those that claim to be above the mess and get their kicks in sprouting "alternate facts". There's just too much of that at present and that is the real enemy of truth.
Now back to my scotch and another tango with Zorba.
Edited by SteveG - March 16 2018 at 14:30
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Posted: March 16 2018 at 14:53
^ the reason i brought up my study of Russian language and culture is to give a sense of my commitment to a subject before i feel i have any authority to even have an intelligible opinion. If anything i have posted here appears as "alternative" facts to you means you simply haven't delved into this stuff as much as i have. Take it or leave it any way that you want but do realize that there are many of us out there who have derived our opinions from extensive research and not just someone else's word. I'm merely presenting things for others to investigate on their own
Joined: August 09 2010
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Posted: March 16 2018 at 17:40
[QUOTE=Davesax1965]Here's a conspiracy theory for you, then.
Porton Down synthesize a version of Novichok and then poison a former spy on UK territory. Reason unknown but for a secret reason known only to UK Gov PLC.
That would probably be the first time in history it's happened. Now the question - "why would they ? " and also "don't you think that coming to that kind of conclusion is an unprovable step further away from a more rational explanation ? "
As the UK Defence secretary Gavin Williamson announced that Porton Down was going to receive £48 million to create a new chemical & biological warfare facility, it has sorted of answered your question 'why would they' and suddenly it no longer looks like a 'conspiracy theory'.. And no, I don't actually believe that's what happened.. but it also comes at a time when many schools are at a point of financial collapse, along with the national health system and this sort of expense would not be tolerated by the general tax-paying public.
Joined: January 17 2012
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Posted: March 16 2018 at 18:46
Reveal proof of details obtained from the chemical at the scene. Russia say they stopped making it in 1990. So if it's later in its concoction. Anyway, the least that can happen is it's easily the end of a leader. Take your pick! Voted Other.
Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: March 17 2018 at 08:52
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ the reason i brought up my study of Russian language and culture is to give a sense of my commitment to a subject before i feel i have any authority to even have an intelligible opinion. If anything i have posted here appears as "alternative" facts to you means you simply haven't delved into this stuff as much as i have. Take it or leave it any way that you want but do realize that there are many of us out there who have derived our opinions from extensive research and not just someone else's word. I'm merely presenting things for others to investigate on their own
Boy this is getting tiresome, I'm afraid. Its not your warped world views that bother me but your insistence that you have greater knowledge than those that you engage, as if the people you talk down to are dwellers in a cave. I've been a member of the Students For A Democratic Society (SDS) since 1969 and I'm the chapter's chairperson in my district right up this present moment. I believe that I've studied more political, cultural and social theories and practices than you just based on my observation of your one sided views. Again, that's not what bothers me. Only your failure to tread lightly with someone on the other side of your posts. And please keep this mind, a great amount of warped information is simply not knowledge.
Edited by SteveG - March 17 2018 at 08:53
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Joined: October 19 2011
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Posted: March 17 2018 at 09:45
SteveG wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ the reason i brought up my study of Russian language and culture is to give a sense of my commitment to a subject before i feel i have any authority to even have an intelligible opinion. If anything i have posted here appears as "alternative" facts to you means you simply haven't delved into this stuff as much as i have. Take it or leave it any way that you want but do realize that there are many of us out there who have derived our opinions from extensive research and not just someone else's word. I'm merely presenting things for others to investigate on their own
Boy this is getting tiresome, I'm afraid. Its not your warped world views that bother me but your insistence that you have greater knowledge than those that you engage, as if the people you talk down to are dwellers in a cave. I've been a member of the Students For A Democratic Society (SDS) since 1969 and I'm the chapter's chairperson in my district right up this present moment. I believe that I've studied more political, cultural and social theories and practices than you just based on my observation of your one sided views. Again, that's not what bothers me. Only your failure to tread lightly with someone on the other side of your posts. And please keep this mind, a great amount of warped information is simply not knowledge.
What makes Silly Puppy's hypothesis warped?
Is it because Silly Puppy's viewpoint disagrees with MSM?
MSM and (USA,UK,EU) governments were wrong about "Weapons of Mass Destruction" in IRAQ.
"Half a million civilians dead" and 7 Trillion American tax payer dollars later, we are suppose to believe everything Western Governments say?
Tell me why I should believe the UK Government's explanation for Skripal's poisoning? What proof does the Theresa May have? SteveG, "what agency or government" do you belief poisoned Skripal and why do you believe what you believe? Please provide Proof or Logic.
Arguments based on "appeal to authority" can be "logically fallacious". However, I believe both SteveG and Silly Puppy are sincere when they speak of their qualifications and personal political histories.
Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: March 17 2018 at 09:55
^ A big part of conspiracy theory is the elaborate complication of the so called "facts." by the theorists. Let's keep things simple, shall we. A great man once wrote a simple statement in the hopes that his fellow citizens would not be bamboozled by wild hyperbole and complicated minutia of detail. It goes like this: "We hold these truths to be self evident".
If your theories cannot be verified using an examination by this simple statement then they are warped. As far as my reasoning for UK's position, do the work and backtrack through these posts and you'll find it.
Edited by SteveG - March 17 2018 at 09:57
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Posted: March 17 2018 at 10:33
SteveG wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
^ the reason i brought up my study of Russian language and culture is to give a sense of my commitment to a subject before i feel i have any authority to even have an intelligible opinion. If anything i have posted here appears as "alternative" facts to you means you simply haven't delved into this stuff as much as i have. Take it or leave it any way that you want but do realize that there are many of us out there who have derived our opinions from extensive research and not just someone else's word. I'm merely presenting things for others to investigate on their own
Boy this is getting tiresome, I'm afraid. Its not your warped world views that bother me but your insistence that you have greater knowledge than those that you engage, as if the people you talk down to are dwellers in a cave. I've been a member of the Students For A Democratic Society (SDS) since 1969 and I'm the chapter's chairperson in my district right up this present moment. I believe that I've studied more political, cultural and social theories and practices than you just based on my observation of your one sided views. Again, that's not what bothers me. Only your failure to tread lightly with someone on the other side of your posts. And please keep this mind, a great amount of warped information is simply not knowledge.
not picking a side.. for that would take knowing what is going on.. but that post. Spot on frickin gold... for I recognize my own faults in your words of wisdom Steve. There is a lot of stupidity and ignorance out there that gave us the current sh*t show we have.. the problem is .. there is so much.. it is easy to assume that most o the people you interactive with virtually are amoung the 80% that vote without considering the consequence.. that express opinions without thought.
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Posted: March 17 2018 at 10:42
oh and far what the UK should do.. what we should have done..send a real mesage. Again why Putin wanted the orange fool than Iron Hillary.
next time Putin sends one of his toy 80's tech jets on some silly flyby.. blow the f**ker out of the sky. He knows he is a man among children with Trump and May.. talk a good game.. but not an ounce of backbone. Hillary likely scared Putin.. she scared me.. and I don't scare easy. About the only women I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.. though I did want some of that ass....
Edited by micky - March 17 2018 at 10:42
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Posted: March 17 2018 at 10:53
micky wrote:
oh and far what the UK should do.. what we should have done..send a real mesage. Again why Putin wanted the orange fool than Iron Hillary.
next time Putin sends one of his toy 80's tech jets on some silly flyby.. blow the f**ker out of the sky. He knows he is a man among children with Trump and May.. talk a good game.. but not an ounce of backbone. Hillary likely scared Putin.. she scared me.. and I don't scare easy. About the only women I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.. though I did want some of that ass....
Iron Hillary? Really? Is that why Hillary signed off on sending 20% of American Uranium to Russia? Iron Hillary wanted to send a message. Well Hillary sent the message cause Russian donors donated 150 million dollars to the Clinton Foundation.
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Posted: March 17 2018 at 11:17
SteveG wrote:
^ A big part of conspiracy theory is the elaborate complication of the so called "facts." by the theorists. Let's keep things simple, shall we. A great man once wrote a simple statement in the hopes that his fellow citizens would not be bamboozled by wild hyperbole and complicated minutia of detail. It goes like this: "We hold these truths to be self evident".
If your theories cannot be verified using an examination by this simple statement then they are warped. As far as my reasoning for UK's position, do the work and backtrack through these posts and you'll find it.
I reviewed your statements on thread.
1. Russia's history of killing spies.
2." If the British got this wrong, it makes up for the hundreds of other unmentioned acts by the Russians. So be it. "
3."The UK, unlike the Trump crowd, does not state their intelligence findings, that's why you have no proof."
4. "We hold these truths to be self evident". -"If your theories cannot be verified using an examination by this simple statement then they are warped."
Would you like to add anything else to your reasoning?
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Posted: March 17 2018 at 11:18
hahaha... say what you will... but Hillary scarred the bully and despot that is Putin. And as Thomas so eloquently stated earlier.. Putin is a menace and threat to world stabilty and peace.. and not surprisingly is best bro's with world menace #2.. our own f**king over his head and lost in twitter space President. (of red America haha)
Edited by micky - March 17 2018 at 11:19
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Posted: March 17 2018 at 17:09
Oh brother. Funny how those who are confronted with an opposing opinion always scream conspiracy theorist!
Regarding false flags, there is absolutely nothing i've presented that isn't a matter of public record and meticulously documented.
I have no comments for the nonsense i've read. I don't waste time on these things. All i want is to show a valuable resource that will clearly demonstrate the patterns in which these events occur. And unfortunately the world is complex so that will eliminate many from pursuing them.
If you don't find these things helpful, here's some advice: don't read or watch them! For those who have an open mind and find new information stimulating regarding world events please check out Richard Dolan's excellent series False Flags. I know of it on Gaia (which costs $10 a month but i think you can watch a few freebies) but it very well may be available on Netflix or elsewhere. While all this information is taught in more progressive univesities around the world, i've never experienced it laid out quite so elegantly.
If anyone wants to talk about anything of substance regarding these issues or about any particular point i've made, i'm all ears, OTHERWISE this is mostly empty content.
Joined: May 23 2013
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Posted: March 18 2018 at 05:27
I'm afraid that the amount of conspiracy theories on this post are tempting me to put up an "Am I an idiot ? " post with just a "yes" button, and to sit back and wait and see what happens.
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Posted: March 18 2018 at 07:07
Davesax1965 wrote:
Incidentally, I'd like to ask how the Bay of Pigs was "a false flag".
Russian nerve agent found at the site, no false flag. So much for the conspiracy theory.
Unless you want to believe (as in X Files) that UK Gov PLC "made it up", in which case, you can disbelieve any fact whatsoever, which is what conspiracy theorists tend to do.
So I blame Jeremy Clarkson, that's just as rational. Jezzer is behind it.
conspiracy- a secret plan by a two or more people to do something unlawful or harmful:
Therefore the proposition that Putin or Russia poisoned Skripal with a nerve gas is a....Conspiracy Theory.
False flags result in actual death and destruction? False flags often use real weapons. Ergo, just because Theresa May claims a Russia nerve agent was found on site, does NOT disprove a false flag.
If Theresa May does not provide proof that Russia poisoned Skripal, yet Theresa May proposes that Russia conspired to poison Skripal, then Theresa May just put forth a Conspiracy Theory.
If I point out the definition of "false flags" and "conspiracy theory, that doesn't make what I said a conspiracy theory.
Definition of False Flag. "False flag terrorism" occurs when elements within a government stage a secret operation whereby government forces pretend to be a targeted enemy while attacking their own forces or people. The attack is then falsely blamed on the enemy in order to justify going to war against that enemy.
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Posted: March 18 2018 at 12:45
Speculation (about who did what and why) and 5 pounds will get you a cup of coffee at a trendy bistro in London.
Saying it's a false flag is pure speculation.....but people certainly have the right to make such claims.
btw...regarding the False Flag series cited above by Richard Dolan.....he's a known alien and ufo conspiracy theorist and many in that genre think he's a bit loony (though some of them are 'out there' also), I have read his early books many years ago on ufos and the national security state. Not exactly a source I would use to prove a point or argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_M._Dolan
Edited by dr wu23 - March 18 2018 at 12:57
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Posted: March 18 2018 at 13:40
I didn’t read the whole of this thread, so someone might have made this point before.
It seems highly unlikely to me that the Russians were behind this attack. It just doesn’t fit their usual MO (in a peaceful country, anyway). I mean let’s face it: if these guys are good at anything at all, it’s bumping people off; efficiently and with minimum fuss. But this was just either a giant f*ckup or some demonstration or other.
What happened to the discreet drop of cyanide in the drinky-poo or the elegant stabby-stabby in a crowd? It just doesn’t seem feasible that someone in Russia thought it might be appropriate to spray a small town in England with nerve gas and hope for the best.
And on top of that the victim(s) survive? Give me a break! The Russians are getting constantly better at this stuff, not worse.
To me it looks like some sort of proof of concept, Blofeld-style.
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Posted: March 18 2018 at 13:47
dr wu23 wrote:
Speculation (about who did what and why) and 5 pounds will get you a cup of coffee at a trendy bistro in London.
Saying it's a false flag is pure speculation.....but people certainly have the right to make such claims.
btw...regarding the False Flag series cited above by Richard Dolan.....he's a known alien and ufo conspiracy theorist and many in that genre think he's a bit loony (though some of them are 'out there' also), I have read his early books many years ago on ufos and the national security state. Not exactly a source I would use to prove a point or argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_M._Dolan
Any claims are speculation. That's the whole point!
There are many government whistleblowers who have confirmed extraterrestrial life exists including former Canadian Minister of Defense Paul Helyer, but honestly that's not relevant to the topic. Dolan's investigation into these topics are substantiated by a real phenomena. Even my mother has seen real UFOs.
Not relevant to the False Flag series which is based on mdticulous research. If you haven't seen it then you'll have no idea where I'm coming from.
Point blank, all I'm saying is that there is no evidence to make any conclusions and a whole history of government deception means many of us will never trust a single thing that comes out of their weasly lying lips.
Joined: December 05 2007
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Posted: March 18 2018 at 14:25
Sorry, but I think most people have learnt that you can't trust the government (except the Trump administration, of course), but isn't bringing conspiracy theories and UFOs into it going a bit far? I'd hush up about that, if you want to be taken seriously.
Then again the attack on Salisbury might just have been alien farts. What do I know?
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Russian chemical attack on UK
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siLLy puPPy wrote:
