Russian chemical attack on UK

SteveG wrote: ^ A big part of conspiracy theory is the elaborate complication of the so called "facts." by the theorists. Let's keep things simple, shall we. A great man once wrote a simple statement in the hopes that his fellow citizens would not be bamboozled by wild hyperbole and complicated minutia of detail. It goes like this: "We hold these truths to be self evident".  If your theories cannot be verified using an examination by this simple statement then they are warped. As far as my reasoning for UK's position, do the work and backtrack through these posts and you'll find it.

oh and far what the UK should do.. what we should have done..send a real mesage.  Again why Putin wanted the orange fool than Iron Hillary.  

Edited by micky - March 17 2018 at 10:42

^ A big part of conspiracy theory is the elaborate complication of the so called "facts." by the theorists. Let's keep things simple, shall we. A great man once wrote a simple statement in the hopes that his fellow citizens would not be bamboozled by wild hyperbole and complicated minutia of detail. It goes like this: "We hold these truths to be self evident". 

Edited by SteveG - March 17 2018 at 09:57

siLLy puPPy wrote: ^ the reason i brought up my study of Russian language and culture is to give a sense of my commitment to a subject before i feel i have any authority to even have an intelligible opinion. If anything i have posted here appears as "alternative" facts to you means you simply haven't delved into this stuff as much as i have. Take it or leave it any way that you want but do realize that there are many of us out there who have derived our opinions from extensive research and not just someone else's word. I'm merely presenting things for others to investigate on their own

Boy this is getting tiresome, I'm afraid. Its not your warped world views that bother me but your insistence that you have greater knowledge than those that you engage, as if the people you talk down to are dwellers in a cave. I've been a member of the Students For A Democratic Society (SDS) since 1969 and I'm the chapter's chairperson in my district right up this present moment. I believe that I've studied more political, cultural and social theories and practices than you just based on my observation of your one sided views. Again, that's not what bothers me. Only your failure to tread lightly with someone on the other side of your posts. And please keep this mind, a great amount of warped information is simply not knowledge.

Edited by SteveG - March 17 2018 at 08:53

^ No one could be more distrustful of governments than an old American hippie like me, so I do acknowledge that your feelings derive from this distrust, which I feel is healthy. What I feel is not healthy is when people trust those that claim to be above the mess and get their kicks in sprouting "alternate facts". There's just too much of that at present and that is the real enemy of truth.

Edited by SteveG - March 16 2018 at 14:30

siLLy puPPy wrote: [QUOTE=Davesax1965]As for your references to conspiracy theories regarding Russia. Yes, i've been there. I studied the Russian language for five years in the university and i have studied the history fairly extensively as well as delving into the suppressed scientific discoveries that went underground after the USSR collapsed. Some of us really do have a deep understanding of these issues that are firmly based in extensive research rather than banal paranoia and insipid distrust of authority.

*Cough* (Spits 12 year old scotch on keyboard!)

Edited by SteveG - March 16 2018 at 13:17

^ it's almost always the case that rushed accusations lacking substantial evidence is a false flag. It's like telltale sign number 1 on the list

^ I've found the simple answer is rarely the real one. It's certainly the lazy route for those not motivated to do the hard work to find the truth if it's even findable. Why does a lightning bolt zigzag instead of descending to the Earth in a straight line? Why do human languages have idioms when the simplest route is mechanical grammatical constructs?

Edited by siLLy puPPy - March 16 2018 at 08:26

Hi Tszirmay (y privet ! ) 

Yes, quite correct. Since the time of the Tsars, there has always been a state police in Russia which operates without conventional rules. Started with the Okhrana, but it's gone through various incarnations - as you say, the Chekists changed into a variety of state organs: all have acted without any reference to the law and all have operated externally to Russia at some point. 

At the end of the day, what do we know ? There has been an attack in the UK (this has happened before) against a former spy. This has happened before. Traces have been found of a nerve agent produced in Russia. This has been identified by Porton Down, who are a world authority in producing chemical weapons including the more normal VX agent. Yes, Novichok *could* be synthesized outside of Russia, but it's not the easiest thing to synthesize a nerve agent. A private individual would be incapable of doing it. A company would probably have extreme difficulty. It is theoretically possible but highly unlikely. 

Strangely, when Kim Jong Un's half brother was assassinated, using VX, in Malaysia, no one came up with any conspiracy theories. Kim Jong Nam was somewhat of an embarassment and liability to North Korea, who are known to have the capacity to manufacture VX. No one pointed a finger elsewhere or looked for a cause external to North Korea. 

It seems irrational at best to start pointing fingers at anywhere other than either the Kremlin or Russian secret services in the London case. Or speculating with no evidence whatsoever. And that's what gets me about conspiracy theories, they are baseless supposition which goes way beyond a reasonable guess and fully embraces utter paranoid speculation. People believe conspiracy theories because they want to believe them - it suits their own particular views which are unsupported (or unsupportable) by any evidence. 

Flat earthers, no moon landing, JFK assassination, give us all a break. The simplest answer is always the most likely. Anything else and it all starts sounding like UFO freaks after one spliff too many.