Russian chemical attack on UK

SteveG wrote: Atavachron wrote: Who gains most from the death of a Russian spy?  Other Russian spies.  Excellent example. No one is claiming that false flags don't exist, only that in this case it's unlikely and that's the difference when people try to argue their paranoid agenda. And make no mistake about it, a big part of paranoia is the failure to reason rationally.

Blacksword wrote: M27Barney wrote: We may be a small country but we still have the ability to nuke some sense into any bigger adversary - think of us as an angry short ginger bloke with an AK47....... Indeed, like the small guy has the ability the punch the big guy, before the big guy crushes him like a gingernut biscuit, and makes a radioactive cheescake base out of him.

I had a run in with the FSB. 

True story. 1998, Sheremetievo Airport, Moscow. Accidentally ripped my visa in half. A nice gentleman in a grey suit took me into a side room and handed me a sellotape dispenser and invited me to tape my visa back up before I left Russia. Four of his friends were standing there with AK-74's so I thought discretion was the better part of value. I did point out the flight was due to Paris in 15 minutes. 

"The plane leaves when we tell it to", he helpfully informed me. 

Smert Schpionam really existed not to get rid of spies, more to act as an informer network in the lead up to the Great Purges of 1936 and 1937. However, the Russians always have had an interest in getting shut of the predatel - traitor - and Machiavellian assassinations, occasionally on foreign soil, have always happened. As Trotsky can tell you, once he gets rid of the ice pick. 

There's quite a lot of conspiracy theories on this thread and I'd ask the advocates of the whackier theories - (a) Ever been to the USSR or Russia ? (b) Aware of Russian history ? (c) Resident in Europe (as it's the sphere of influence for Russia, the US is generally not (I know Trotsky was assassinated in Mexico, yeah yeah.) 

If the answers to these questions is "no" then you're falling into the usual Internet pattern of "opinion rather than knowledge", I'm afraid. 

Another funny I did in Moscow was go off to see the Lubyanka. Nearly got knocked down outside it by a gang of Russian criminals with faces like blind cobblers' thumbs. Car screeched around a corner, scattering pedestrians, I just thought "zhopa" and stood there look a tough English idiot. "Pashol von, mudaki", I shouted at them as the car missed me by two inches. My bad Russian accent probably saved me as if they'd understand me, I'd have more metal in my chest than Leonid Brezhnev. (600 medals.) 

Davesax1965 wrote: Incidentally, I'd like to ask how the Bay of Pigs was "a false flag". Russian nerve agent found at the site, no false flag. So much for the conspiracy theory.  Unless you want to believe (as in X Files) that UK Gov PLC "made it up", in which case, you can disbelieve any fact whatsoever, which is what conspiracy theorists tend to do.  So I blame Jeremy Clarkson, that's just as rational. Jezzer is behind it.

^ looks like we're kindred spirits. I was also a biology major but i was a linguistics freak and studied Russian, German, Spanish, Italian and French as well. All along though i have been very interested in just about every other aspect of reality so call me the ultimate nerd. I fit the bill. There is another aspect as to why false flags occur. I have also been a student of metaphysics and spriritual practices. It seems that black magic is being used to manipulate the world on governmental levels. Purportedly rediscovered by Queen Elizabeth's sorcerer at hand in the 1500s and used to usurp power. I know it sounds crazy but the whole reason pedophilia exists is to split personalities in humans so they can be manipulated by mind control. Also we are living in nothing more than an adult version of Monsters Inc where the power hungry elites harvest our fears after such attacks. Their greatest fear is that our group consciousness will merge and awaken to our true powers. Since they are not allowed by the universe to carry these things out without revealing their intentions, there is purportedly a declaration of the three world wars (one, two and terror) on display in the Library of London i believe. I have heard from those who have seen it that it is indeed quite real. Politicians are not really in control. They are indeed puppets of the hidden elites just as the Pope is a front for the "black pope." It's all really wild the deeper you dig into this stuff. 

Hi Tszirmay (y privet ! ) 

Yes, quite correct. Since the time of the Tsars, there has always been a state police in Russia which operates without conventional rules. Started with the Okhrana, but it's gone through various incarnations - as you say, the Chekists changed into a variety of state organs: all have acted without any reference to the law and all have operated externally to Russia at some point. 

At the end of the day, what do we know ? There has been an attack in the UK (this has happened before) against a former spy. This has happened before. Traces have been found of a nerve agent produced in Russia. This has been identified by Porton Down, who are a world authority in producing chemical weapons including the more normal VX agent. Yes, Novichok *could* be synthesized outside of Russia, but it's not the easiest thing to synthesize a nerve agent. A private individual would be incapable of doing it. A company would probably have extreme difficulty. It is theoretically possible but highly unlikely. 

Strangely, when Kim Jong Un's half brother was assassinated, using VX, in Malaysia, no one came up with any conspiracy theories. Kim Jong Nam was somewhat of an embarassment and liability to North Korea, who are known to have the capacity to manufacture VX. No one pointed a finger elsewhere or looked for a cause external to North Korea. 

It seems irrational at best to start pointing fingers at anywhere other than either the Kremlin or Russian secret services in the London case. Or speculating with no evidence whatsoever. And that's what gets me about conspiracy theories, they are baseless supposition which goes way beyond a reasonable guess and fully embraces utter paranoid speculation. People believe conspiracy theories because they want to believe them - it suits their own particular views which are unsupported (or unsupportable) by any evidence. 

Flat earthers, no moon landing, JFK assassination, give us all a break. The simplest answer is always the most likely. Anything else and it all starts sounding like UFO freaks after one spliff too many. 

^ I've found the simple answer is rarely the real one. It's certainly the lazy route for those not motivated to do the hard work to find the truth if it's even findable. Why does a lightning bolt zigzag instead of descending to the Earth in a straight line? Why do human languages have idioms when the simplest route is mechanical grammatical constructs?

Edited by siLLy puPPy - March 16 2018 at 08:26

^ it's almost always the case that rushed accusations lacking substantial evidence is a false flag. It's like telltale sign number 1 on the list

siLLy puPPy wrote: [QUOTE=Davesax1965]As for your references to conspiracy theories regarding Russia. Yes, i've been there. I studied the Russian language for five years in the university and i have studied the history fairly extensively as well as delving into the suppressed scientific discoveries that went underground after the USSR collapsed. Some of us really do have a deep understanding of these issues that are firmly based in extensive research rather than banal paranoia and insipid distrust of authority.

*Cough* (Spits 12 year old scotch on keyboard!)

Edited by SteveG - March 16 2018 at 13:17